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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, August 24, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Assembly Language Programming
Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ)
AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum!
AFL GaryJ Our topic tonight is Assembly Language Programming.
AFL GaryJ (Our scheduled topic, that is :)
AFL GaryJ Hi Andy
AFA AndyW Hi Gary..
Sheppy bak.
AFL GaryJ But we can also discuss what ever is on your mind.
Sheppy Hiya, Andy!
AFL GaryJ (Such as Randolph's question, which is currently on the floor)
RandolphlS Oh well thanks for trying guys
AFL GaryJ Hi Etmusta
Etmusta Good Evening all ...
AFA AndyW Randolph, when a question is asked through the "Ask the staff", it
is sent
Sheppy Randy -- if you got the program in AUT, try asking your question
there. :)
AFL GaryJ Randolph, what did you find the file under in our library?
AFL GaryJ Do you remember the file description?
Sheppy Someone there might now the answer.
AFA AndyW via email, and if none of those who are on the email list are
online, you will
AFA AndyW not receive an answer right away...
AFL GaryJ Oh, you got it in AUT?
Sheppy Hi, Jim. Wazzup?
RandolphlS I found it in gs utilitys
AFC DYAJim hey eric!
Tamira hi Apple people
Sheppy He did say "the utilities forum". :)
Tamira Gary I have a question
AFA AndyW Anyway, to run the DeARJ program, you must place it in your
ORCA/UTILITIES
RandolphlS YUP
AFL GaryJ Oh, I see. The AUT staff would have gotten that e-mail, then.
AFL GaryJ Hi Jim and Tamira!
AFA AndyW folder, then edit your SHELL/SYSCMNDS file, and add the UNARJ
program to the
AFA AndyW list of utilities..
Etmusta jump in quick Tamira !
Sheppy The learning curve on ORCA can be pretty steep. It took me a
while to get the
Sheppy hang of the shell, but I really like it (even though I've been
forced, against
AFL GaryJ Q = Randolph, Tamira
Sheppy my will, to use Merlin 16+ lately). :)
Sheppy Hey, James.
AFL GaryJ Hi James
AFA AndyW Here's who all received the email..
AFA AndyW Subj: SHELL/UNARJ
AFA AndyW Date: 93-08-24 18:25:44 EDT
AFA AndyW From: RandolphlS
AFA AndyW To: afcsofty, AFL JoeyS, AFA AndyW
AFA AndyW To: AFA Warren, AFL DannyH, AFC GaryG
James S WI Hi again Jim. Hi Shep, Andy, Gary, .....
RandolphlS do I need to buy orca c to compile???
Sheppy If you want to compile C programs, yes.
Sheppy ORCA/M is only an assembler.
AFA AndyW There should be an EXE file already there for UNARJ..
Sheppy (which includes the shell, of course).
AFL GaryJ Anything else, Randolph?
Ferreri1 What is UNARJ supposed to do?
RandolphlS but that is only for ibm's and clones.. right????
AFL GaryJ What is?
AFA AndyW ORCA/C will contain a newer version of the shell (v 2.0.2)..
Sheppy Eh? Whatever do you mean? All ORCA products are for Apple IIs.
AFL GaryJ That's right.
RandolphlS it's supposed to decompress arj files
AFL Marty STEVE
Sheppy Also, executable utilities for the ORCA/Shell are called "EXE"s.
AFC SteveB MARTY (Hey everyone!)
Sheppy Hi, Steve.
Sheppy (I'm back! :)
Sheppy (just like MS-DOS EXEs, but much, much cooler, and they don't run
under
Sheppy MessyDOS. :)
JoyceAnn S :)
James S WI What did you expect us to do about that Eric? (About you being
back) ;)
RandolphlS well I guess I need to read the orca/m manul and try the
suggestions
AFL GaryJ The file DOES include an MS-DOS EXE file, but that is different
from
RandolphlS i'v gotten here
AFL GaryJ the one used to execute under ORCA.
Sheppy Run screaming into the woods, of course, James. :)
AFC DYAJim hey James
RandolphlS what one do I use under ORCA/m
James S WI Hmm, I don't think there are any "woods" around here.
Ferreri1 I think Randolph is in them James.
AFL GaryJ I don't have the file list here... but it would NOT be the one
called "UNARJ.EXE"/
James S WI heh
AFL GaryJ UNARJ.EXE is the MS-DOS file.
Sheppy James, plant some trees and wait a couple hundred years. Voila!
Woods!! :)
RandolphlS I'm lost in the woods and the SUN has set
AFL GaryJ :)
Etmusta Have questions concerning ...
AFL GaryJ Ok, Tamira has the next question...
AFL GaryJ GA, Tamira
Tamira this is not a question on the present topic but a cry for
help.......does ANYONE have a SuperDrive
Tamira Controller Card or know someone who does
Ferreri1 Can't afford one yet...
Tamira we need one DESPERATELY for Dave's GS
AFC DYAJim I almost bought one, but then I decided my /ram5 was more
important.
RandolphlS quality computers
AFC DYAJim Someone was selling one for $40
AFL GaryJ You want to buy one?
Tamira yes/....Apple has em but wants $135
AFL GaryJ Oh, I see - you want to know about a 3rd party card, or a used
re-sell of an Apple card.
AFL GaryJ (I'm catching on slowly tonight :)
Ferreri1 Did you check the classifieds?
Tamira yes....posted....asked in the HW forum last night....was hoping
that someone here might have one they
AFC SteveB brb
AFC DYAJim I think the $40 ad was in misc.forsale.comptuers.other.. it was
from guy
Tamira don't need/want anymore
AFL GaryJ You could put up a "wanted" ad. Sometimes that works.
Sheppy I want to get one someday, but I can't afford such luxuries. :(
AFC DYAJim at Apple, but I can't remember who.
AFL GaryJ Same here, Sheppy :)
Tamira Ill check there, Jim...and thanx
AFL GaryJ er... :(
AFL GaryJ Ok, Etmusta, did you have a question?
James S WI Ha, Ha. I have one. Now if I could just afford some decent
cloths and a
James S WI spall checker. ;)
Etmusta Yes, thanks...
AFL GaryJ :)
James S WI (And some typing lessons)
Etmusta I figure the new PowerCD is a good match for my GS with VOC
RandolphlS CYA!!!! bye.... bye.....
AFL GaryJ Goodnight, Randolph.
Etmusta but where might I find ifo on interpting
AFC DYAJim If the superdrive card supported /ram5 I'd buy one
Etmusta the PhotoCD format, to make a frame grabber in software ?>?
AFC DYAJim can someone write a new ramdisk driver to work with the superdrive
card?
James S WI Jim, why isn't slot 6 available?
Sheppy 6.0.1 comes with one, doesn't it?
Sheppy 'Course, I don't use /RAM5 -- I use my PCT's RAMdisk.
AFL GaryJ Wait, we have two different conversations here....
Etmusta see
AFC DYAJim slot 6 = DDT
AFL GaryJ Where is the PhotoCD format documented?
AFC DYAJim as it is, I have to swap between my modem, digitizer, and midi
AFC DYAJim (yech)
Sheppy I don't have any idea where to get info about the PhotoCD format.
I assume
AFC DYAJim (they all want slot2/modem port)
Sheppy it's documented somewhere. I bet Kodak has that info. :)
AFL GaryJ I don't know of an Apple source.
Ferreri1 Isn't that a Kodak format?
AFC DYAJim does 601 have a ramdisk driver then that works with the new
card?
Etmusta I though perhaps there migh be some snippets floating around
Sheppy I believe so, Jim.
Sheppy (although I ain't got 6.0.1 yet...)
Ferreri1 Jim, have 6.0.1 don't have superdrive...can't tell.
Etmusta same as with the flatbed scanner on sys6 CD...
AFC DYAJim I was under the impression that it just sped up tne normal /ram5,
that it
AFL GaryJ There might be something in one of the other forums online, but I
haven't seen anything in the
AFL GaryJ Apple II world on it.
AFC DYAJim didn't add a new /ram5 for the FDHD card, but I really don't know
either
James S WI Jim, I will move my SuperDrive to slot 5 and let you know some
time soon.
Sheppy I've heard talk about a few bugs in the driver. No, I think it
actually sets
AFC DYAJim cool James :)
Sheppy up its own RAM5, independent from the one the firmware generates.
It's not
Sheppy accessible under ProDOS 8.
AFC DYAJim no P8? well, I guess I'd mainly use it under gs/os anyhow
Sheppy But all info on the subject coming from me is suspect since I
haven't any real
Sheppy info except for what I've heard here and there.
Ferreri1 Not familiar with the flatbed scanner on sys6 CD.
Etmusta I recall reading somewhere that there was a partly functional fb
scanner
Etmusta driver on the 6 CD
Sheppy Actually, I thought the whole point to the driver was to allow
people with
Sheppy SuperDrives to have a /RAM5, aside from the added benefit of more
speed.
Etmusta oops ! multiple drivers in mixed conversation !!
James S WI There is a scanner driver on the Sys6 CD but no software uses
it.
Ferreri1 I have all the CDs from Develope, but no drive.. don't know what
IIGS software
Sheppy ?MULTIPLE DRIVERS ERROR IN LINE 650 ** beep **
Ferreri1 is on them.
AFC DYAJim there is a sample app that uses it james but it only works with
the original
AFC DYAJim apple scanner with apple scsi
Etmusta :)
AFC DYAJim (and it ain't that hot anyhow)
AFL GaryJ Etmusta: I just did some checking - the closest I could come up
with is a list of
Sheppy Wouldn't it be nice if some enterprising programmer coded
apps/drivers for all
AFL GaryJ PhotoCD dealers :)
Sheppy the new Mac peripherals that are hardware compatible with the
IIGS? :)
AFL GaryJ (no file format info)
AFL GaryJ Hi Joseph
Ferreri1 Sounds like a job for .... Sheppy!
Etmusta Some of us will try shepp
Sheppy Pffft. I'm loaded down with lots of programming already. I have
a whole
Etmusta thanks anyhow, Gary
AFL GaryJ Sounds like a job Apple should be doing, really :)
AFL GaryJ Hi Matt
Sheppy month of nothing at all to do but program, so hopefully I can
crank out a few
Sheppy cool new programs.
Sheppy Yo, Matt!
AFL GaryJ Ok, any other questions?
AFA AndyW !
AFL GaryJ GA, Andy
AFA AndyW I have a reply to Marty, Re: Online Enhancer..
AFL GaryJ I have a question for Andy and Steve regarding the Online Enhancer
too (when you're done)
AFA AndyW It has to do with rSounds and the sound control panel..
Matt DTS Yo.
AFC SteveB (I'm afk)
AFA AndyW First, the sound CP will NOT play any sound that it doesn't know
about..
AFA AndyW This means that if you copy a new sound into the sounds folder, it
will NOT
AFA AndyW be seen until after the sound control panel has a chance to reread
the sounds
AFL Marty That doesn't apply in my case.
AFA AndyW folder. This only happens on bootup, or when you execute the
sound CDEV..
AFA AndyW Second, sound names MUST be exactly the same name as that stored
in the
AFA AndyW name resource for the sound (except for case, despite what the
manual from BW
AFA AndyW says)..
AFL Marty That explains it then.
AFA AndyW Spaces, punctuation, etc. are all signifigant..
AFL Marty I was using the file name, not the name stored in the name
resource.
AFA AndyW That'll do it.. It has to be the name of the sound itself, not
the file name.
AFL Marty You should put that in the docs.
AFA AndyW You can have a lot of different sounds in a single sound resource
file..
AFA AndyW BTW, loading the sound list doesn't take long..
AFA AndyW I have about 150 (maybe more) sounds on my drive, and it only
takes a few
AFA AndyW seconds to load the list..
AFC DYAJim reJames
James S WI Hi, I was playing with my FDHD.
James S WI I just copied a file from a high densify MS-DOS disk to my RAM5
while the
AFC DYAJim ahh.. the fud hud
AFA AndyW We'll have that in the docs.. (when we get started writing them
that is)..
James S WI FDHD was in slot 5 and set to your card.
AFL Marty {S butthead beep}
AFC DYAJim wozers!
Sheppy Way cool. I was right (for a change... :).
AFA AndyW But you have the /ram5 driver installed too James..
James S WI As you would expect the RAM5 was not available under P8.
AFC DYAJim so they worked around it? maybe I'll send email to the $40 fdhd
person! :)
AFA AndyW You WONT have a /ram5 under P8..
James S WI Right Andy. You need the RAM5 driver from 6.0.1 for this to
work.
AFC SteveB (bak)
James S WI It did not work when I tried it with 6.0.
Ferreri1 Have round about question on sounds..
AFL GaryJ GA, Ferreri
James S WI FYI, the "new" RAM5 ram disk still can survive a restart.
James S WI I wasn'tr sure since it is a RAM based driver.
Ferreri1 Have friend on east coast using 6.0 for a year with only start-up
sound...
AFC DYAJim I can't think of the last time I've used /ram5 in P8 anyhow
Ferreri1 Sunday got them online and found out init file called initMaster
was problem
Ferreri1 what is initMaster... anyone know. I just had friend throw it
away.
AFA AndyW initMaster isn't needed with System 6 and IR..
AFC SteveB {S SimpleBeep}
AFA AndyW {S Simple Beep}
AFA AndyW And you Mac people will hear {S 258}..
Ferreri1 Thants what I thought, thanx Andy.
AFC DYAJim init master lets you toggle your inits/das/cdevs on and off
AFC DYAJim or maybe I'm thinking of something else.
Ferreri1 {S ouch}.. don't have Simple beep.
AFC DYAJim what was bill tudor's called then?
AFL GaryJ Do you (Andy or Steve) know anything about the problem with the
Windows AOL uploads
AFA AndyW Nope..
AFL GaryJ and the Apple II software?
AFC DYAJim all I noticed was the file in email that I couldn't download Gary
:-(
AFC DYAJim even tho I had it resent 3 times
AFC SteveB It's a host problem, Gary, that's all we know. :(
Sheppy I think I'm going to take off. Ciao, campers!
AFL GaryJ I was wondering if that was something that could be addressed
through
AFA AndyW Other than there is a problem with size info..
AFL GaryJ memory patching.
AFL GaryJ (I'm not that familiar with the cause).
AFC DYAJim brb
AFL GaryJ I've heard it was a packet size or buffer problem (I don't
know).
AFA AndyW I'd have to patch the token dispatcher to find out what's going on
there..
AFA AndyW And, even then, I might not be able to find out what's going
on..
AFL Marty Wasn't that problem fixed with the newest version of the Windows
software?
AFA AndyW Nope..
AFC SteveB It was supposed to be, Marty :(
AFA AndyW I downloaded 1.1, and had something sent to me via email, using
1.1, and it
AFL GaryJ Is there a "newest" version of WAOL?
AFL Marty I see. AOL Quality Assurance at its best.
James S WI Does any one know if there is a version of WAOL that works in NT?
;)
AFA AndyW still gave the same message when I tried downloading the file..
AFL GaryJ Oh, 1.1.
AFA AndyW It's in the staff area Gary..
AFL GaryJ Must be fairly recent (in the last 3 weeks).
AFA AndyW BRB..
AFL GaryJ And, 1.1 still causes the problem? (aaargh)
AFL Marty Has anyone reported the problem (to AOL)?
AFL GaryJ Yes. I know that AFL JoeyS knows about it.
AFL Marty That's good enough :)
AFA AndyW 7/19 is the date on it..
James S WI Well, I want to get back to the program I was working on. C ya
next week.
AFL GaryJ I have a friend who has a PC Transporter who complains about that
problem on a
AFL GaryJ regular basis. It's a nasty bug that keeps Apple II users from
downloading
AFL GaryJ lots of PC stuff.
JoyceAnn S Good night all. (I'm remembering I've got work early tomorrow.)
AFA AndyW Who had that other enhancer question?
AFL GaryJ Goodnight, Joyce
AFL GaryJ Thanks for coming.
AFL GaryJ That was me (I think)
AFL GaryJ And I just asked it :)
AFL GaryJ It would be nice if that problem could be addressed, since there
is already a
Ferreri1 How is the Online Enhancer project coming..and do you need beta
testers?
AFL GaryJ bunch of stuff online that II users can't download (even if the
problem is fixed
AFL GaryJ in future releases of WAOL)
AFA AndyW Well, it's something that we can't do anything about now, if
ever..
AFA AndyW I think we have more than enough beta testers..
AFC SteveB Yeah, we're all set with beta testers-- thanks anyways :)
Ferreri1 When can we see a release?
AFC SteveB It's coming along well, it's nearly complete... we need to get the
code
AFA AndyW "When it's ready"..
AFL GaryJ "When it's done"?
AFL GaryJ Ok, "ready", then :)
AFC SteveB to compile on Andy's machine first, tho :)
AFC DYAJim I think Gary that the stratus programmers need to get off their
butts and
AFC DYAJim write a stratus program that fixes the files already uploaded
improperly
AFA AndyW Notice how everyone puts it in quotes?
AFC DYAJim so that they can be downloadable once again. That's the ethical
thing to do
AFC DYAJim if they're not going to fix the AII software.
AFA AndyW It assembles, but the files don't match..
AFL Marty Har
AFL GaryJ Marty :)
Ferreri1 Nite, all see ya next week.
AFL GaryJ Goodnight, Ferreri
AFL Marty (Stratus programmers have their hands full getting the file search
to
AFL Marty work right :)
AFL GaryJ True :)
AFL GaryJ Seems to be working tonight (finally)
AFA AndyW Anyone play with the DDT source yet?
AFL Marty Yes. It's about time.
AFC DYAJim I'm still futzing around figuring out how to use the DDT in the
first place.
AFC DYAJim It's SO awkward.
AFC DYAJim Is the only way to run a subroutine in realtime to use the "RT"
command
AFC DYAJim when the JSR/JSL line is displayed in trace mode?
AFC DYAJim eek.
AFL GaryJ You mean after a hardware halt?
AFC DYAJim I mean GSBug's "X" command when in trace mode
AFL GaryJ (By pressing the button?)
AFC SteveB (I have a ? about Make files after this question)
AFC DYAJim yes, after you're in the DDT, Gary
AFC DYAJim when you're tracing code with it
AFA AndyW I think so Jim..
AFC DYAJim (I've actually pulled it out to trace modulae and photonix ii
lately :)
AFC DYAJim I wish there was something easier..
AFL GaryJ It has been a while since I played with the DDT (so I don't
know).
AFC DYAJim like perhaps a different trace mode that automatically ran
subroutines in
AFC DYAJim realtime.
AFC DYAJim it's so tedious
AFC DYAJim how do you turn on SHR in it? I still haven't figured it out.
AFA AndyW It can be used to trace the AOL crash screen too!
AFL GaryJ I thought it was a bit awkward myself. It would have been nice
had I not known about
AFL GaryJ GSBug, however :)
AFC DYAJim Oh, I already patched out the SEI before the AOL Crash screen,
Andy :)
AFC DYAJim So I can pop into GSBug from it.
AFA AndyW I was going to go looking for it.. Do you know where it is
offhand?
AFC DYAJim I wish the DDT also supported monitor standard list and modify
memory commands.
AFC DYAJim I think I just scanned the whole ao.sys16 for SEI opcodes.
AFA AndyW Yeah.. I guess the code should be changed..
AFC DYAJim but it was awhile ago
AFL GaryJ Let's let Steve ask his question...
AFL GaryJ GA, Steve
AFC DYAJim I did it because T2 would blank,
AFA AndyW Well, I'll just have to go look through the code..
AFC DYAJim during a download, and then AOL would crash, and then I could
never see
AFC DYAJim what happened!
AFC DYAJim But how do you turn on SHR from the DDT, Andy?
AFC DYAJim (one sec gary :)
AFL GaryJ (Ok, hold off a sec, Steve :)
AFA AndyW Hmmm.. Not offhand.. I'd have to look through the manual..
AFA AndyW It might not be able to do it..
AFC DYAJim that's terrible :-( okay, go steve
AFC SteveB What exactly are the point of make files, like those used w/ GS+
Make util?
AFA AndyW That would be nice Steve..
AFC SteveB Can't such things be done with plain ol' exec files?
AFC SteveB [ga :)]
AFA AndyW Supposedly they work better than exec files (faster)..
AFC DYAJim Most people I've talken with say the GS+ make utility pales
compared to uni
AFC DYAJim unix make.
AFC DYAJim I've never used Joe's GS+ version so I can't say
AFC DYAJim I used to use EXEC scripts, but orca executes them so blasted
slow
AFC DYAJim so now I only have one EXEC script; everything else is makefiles
AFC SteveB Are there any utils to help me make MAKE scripts?
AFL GaryJ You can use plain ol' exec files, yes, but I guess the benefit is
speed.
AFL GaryJ (Exec files suit me fine)
AFA AndyW Also, NEWER doesn't work well at all..
AFC DYAJim you make your MAKE makefile (heh) in a text editor
Matt DTS A true MAKE utility is a great programming assist, along with
"createmake" or "makemake" which helps
Matt DTS you build complicated Make files.
AFC DYAJim yes, I wish Mike would fix that Newer bug you made a patch for,
Andy!!
AFC SteveB Matt, does such an entity exist?
Matt DTS They list all your object files and what files they depend on, and
give rules for creating the object
AFA Jay makemake :)
AFC DYAJim I wonder if I still have the 2.0.1 patch you sent me.. I installed
it on 2.0,
AFC DYAJim but now I've upgraded.
Matt DTS files from the source files. Each of those can then have
dependencies of it's own, for example.
AFL Marty Goodnight all.
AFC SteveB Nite, Marty!
Matt DTS So, for example, you can have your makefile constructed so that
the files that produce a particular
AFC SteveB That's the type of thing I want - a utility that helps me
generate
AFC SteveB the MAKE scripts so I don't have to learn the scripting language
just to
AFA AndyW The NEWER patch is the same in shell 2.0.2..
AFC SteveB make a lil' script.
Matt DTS segment depend on several different source files, plus perhaps all
the header files and maybe a
Matt DTS library or two. When any of those changes, "make" automatically
realizes the object file and anything
Matt DTS that depends on it has to be rebuilt as well.
AFC DYAJim the scripting language is cake for 90% of my projects :)
AFC DYAJim I don't use libraries yet so it makes it easier for me
Matt DTS (you guys _really_ need to figure out your cross-stream talking.
If I was a client, I'd be
Matt DTS frustrated no end.)
AFC SteveB Does such an entity exist for the IIgs, Matt?
Matt DTS I haven't seen one, Steve.
Matt DTS (not counting MPW's make, which you can use with MPW IIgs)
AFA AndyW There is at least one.. Check the GNO library..
AFC DYAJim yes, but there is no makemake
Matt DTS (That wasn't a signal to shut up; that was a signal to maybe
discuss that when there's something...
AFC SteveB Ahh... Ok, thanks. I'll check that out tonight.
Matt DTS ...going on in the conference, you shouldn't respond individually
to anything that trips your
Matt DTS brain. That's what Instant Messages are for.)
AFC SteveB Ok, thanks Matt and Andy and everyone :) ga
AFL GaryJ Ok... it's after the hour... anything goes
AFL GaryJ (within reason :)
AFA AndyW Well, it isn't in Procyon's library..
AFL GaryJ TOS counts :)
AFC DYAJim when everyone talks with i/ms, the chat looks completely dead
AFC DYAJim it comes with GNO :)
AFC DYAJim everyone should have GNO :)
AFC SteveB Doh... :(
AFA AndyW Anyone have the source for Make and makemake? If so, I might be
able to
AFA AndyW port it over..
Matt DTS Jim: True, but Steve had a question pending and you and Andy
continued a discussion that was really
AFC DYAJim someone is trying to port dmake I think. I haven't seen any make
source
Matt DTS only between the two of you. It was fine, since no clients wre
here, but it happens when they are her
Matt DTS (here) as well. Clients don't come to listen to us talk to each
other, at least most of the time.
Matt DTS This is one reason I never liked CommThingie. :)
AFA AndyW ?
AFL GaryJ GA, Andy
AFA AndyW For Matt.. If I send a request to DTS, through AppleLink, should
there be a
AFA AndyW reply, even if it's no?
AFA AndyW Or should I expect to not get a reply at times?
Matt DTS Yes. You should have gotten an automatic acknowledgement from
DEVSUPT.ACK, plus some kind
Matt DTS of reply, even if it's "we can't help you."