America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, September 21, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: 3D Logo from Byte Works, Inc., Special Guest: Mike Westerfield Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ : <--- 3D glasses in place :) MikeW50 : :) AFA AndyW : Has Apple gotten the 6.0.1 info to you yet Mike? AFL GaryJ : Good question. AFL GaryJ : (I probably know the answer :) MikeW50 : Nope. I was talking with the person who will do it... he feels guilty, but hasn't done it yet. :{ AFL GaryJ : That's a start, at least (feelings of guilt) AFL GaryJ : Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ : Tonight, we are pleased to have Mike Westerfield from the Byte Works here as our special guest! AFL GaryJ : Mike is here to talk about 3D Logo - the latest programming release from the Byte Works. AFL GaryJ : Mike, can you please start out by telling us a little about 3D Logo, and who you see AFL GaryJ : as the target market (and that sort of thing)? AFL GaryJ : BTW: We'll use forum PROTOCOL tonight. Questions will be taken after Mike introduces AFL GaryJ : the product. MikeW50 : To start with, 3D Logo is a lot of things. Trying to explain what 3D Logo is good for to MikeW50 : someone who has never tried Logo or LISP is like explaining Pascal to someone whose done a bit of MikeW50 : AppleSoft-- there are just so many aspects, it's tough to cover them all! A few of the high points MikeW50 : are: MikeW50 : 3D graphics -- with true 3D displays, or as the more common 3D projections MikeW50 : Create movies. Simple ones take just a single line of Logo! MikeW50 : Logo is a great programmable graphics tool. It's like a programmer's version of CAD. MikeW50 : Logo is an AI language. Some of the testing was done by solving AI problems from a LISP textbook! MikeW50 : There are several obvious groups of people I'd like to see using Logo: MikeW50 : Teachers. Logo is used a lot in K-6 because it's so easy to learn. MikeW50 : Graphics oriented folks. It's an astounding graphics tool. MikeW50 : Hobbiest programmers. If you program for fun, you may find that Logo is the best language you'll ever MikeW50 : use -- it's _great_ for things like fractals, simple desktop programs and the like. MikeW50 : I'd also like to mention that we'll be having a series of four seminars in MikeW50 : October. They're free (other than online time). For details, see our announcement in the MikeW50 : ByteWorks industry connection area. MikeW50 : ga AFL GaryJ : Thanks, Mike AFL GaryJ : Now's a good time for questions :) GA, Dan DanP18 : Can you give us an example of the one-liner movie? DanP18 : ga MikeW50 : Sure. Lets' say you have declared a procedure called FLAG that draws a flag on the MikeW50 : screen. Then you can create a simple 36 frame movie that spins the flag around a point with: MikeW50 : REPEAT 36 [FLAG ADDFRAME LEFT 10] DELETEFRAME MikeW50 : That's it! You did something 36 times ( the stuff in []), then MikeW50 : you drew the flag, then added a new movie frame, rotated a bit, and repeated this. Finally, you get MikeW50 : rid of the last, blank frame. After that, click the MikeW50 : play button and run your movie! ga DanP18 : So ADDFRAME is a special 3d logo command? MikeW50 : Yup. There are a half-dosen or so movie related commands. Things like ADDFRAME, PLAY, NEXTFRAME, etc DanP18 : What are the limits on the number of frames in a movie? Can you have DanP18 : more than one movie available at once? ga. MikeW50 : The basic limit on movies is memory. You can have several open at once, but of course, MikeW50 : they chew up memory pretty quick. With 1.25M, you are limited to about 11 frames. With my MikeW50 : machine (4M), I've had two 36 frame movies open at once. I'm not MikeW50 : sure what the absolute limit is. ga AFL GaryJ : Thanks Mike and Dan. Let's move on to HeathW's question. GA, Heath DanP18 : I'll stop for now to let the other questions go through. GA. HeathW : Hi Mr. Westerfield. I bought 3D Logo and it is fantastic!!!!!! MikeW50 : :) (Pick up the $5 later... ) Sheppy : :) AFL GaryJ : :) AFL GaryJ : Anything else, Heath? :) HeathW : I have a question about the Random Command. How do I use it? The book is a HeathW : hard to understand. ga BilMo : $5? Well, gee, we got 3D-logo at GS+ and think it's top-notch! ;) MikeW50 : Basically, RANDOM returns an integer. The parameter tells where to stop. So, to simulate a dice MikeW50 : roll, you might use MikeW50 : 1 + RANDOM 6 MikeW50 : RANDOM will return numbers from 0-5, and you add 1 to force them to be 1-6. ga HeathW : Thanks A lot!!!!!! Keep up the great work at Byte Works!!!! ga HeathW : Bye now! AFL GaryJ : Thanks for coming, HeathW! AFL GaryJ : Ok, next question is from BSC Frank. GA, Frank BCS Frank : How compatable is this LOGO with earlier Apple II LOGO languages like Terapin? MikeW50 : Very. It's based on Apple Logo, and unless there was a _reason_ (like windows instead of a text MikeW50 : screen) 3D Logo is an extension of Apple Logo. Teripin Logo is very compatible, too. For all MikeW50 : of the basic stuff, Logo is pretty much Logo, no matter whose you use. ga BCS Frank : Can you import earlier LOGO programs? MikeW50 : If you can get them into a text file, yes. That's easier with some Logos than others. Personally, I MikeW50 : typed stuff in from the other books; that always worked fine. ga BCS Frank : Thanks! Sounds like a gotta get! :) GA AFL GaryJ : Thanks, Frank. Next question is LavonneS. GA, Lavonne LavonneS : Is this LOGO specifically for GS only or will it be released for Mac also; for HyperStudio scripting?? MikeW50 : 3D Logo, the only one released under our label so far, is for the GS. Roger has released a MikeW50 : preliminary version of our Logo as the scripting language for MikeW50 : HyperStudio Mac. We'll be following up with HyperLogo GS and MikeW50 : 3D Logo Mac in the next few weeks. ga AFL GaryJ : Any follow up, Lavonne? LavonneS : Waiting for some documentation for LOGO with HS for Mac. Any ideas fo timing? MikeW50 : Timing is really up to Roger. Since he prints it, I better leave that question for him. :) There is MikeW50 : already some on the disk, though. Did you find that? ga LavonneS : No not yet, but it is probably pretty obvious if I really look at it LavonneS : ga MikeW50 : It's easy to miss, since that's not normally where you look for documentation. :) AFL GaryJ : Thanks for the question, Lavonne. Dan is next. GA, Dan DanP18 : Is 3D Logo a Orca desktop language? Is it compiled or interpreted? Can DanP18 : you call 3D Logo from C, Pascal, or ASM? ga. MikeW50 : 3D Logo is interpreted. It has it's own environment, with special windows for graphics MikeW50 : and movies. You can't mix Logo with the ORCA languages. ga Sheppy : (which explains why it ain't ORCA/Logo... :) AFL GaryJ : Good questions, Dan. Anything else? DanP18 : Not right now. GA. AFL GaryJ : Frank, you're up next. GA BCS Frank : "HyperLogo GS?" The second scripting language for HyperStudio GS?!? MikeW50 : That's right! I MikeW50 : I'll be working on that version as soon as I put some MikeW50 : finishing touches on HyuperLogo Mac for Roger. ga BCS Frank : You guys have been busy! GA AFL GaryJ : :) MikeW50 : :) AFL GaryJ : James, looks like you're next. GA, James James S WI: Is there a run time version of 3D Logo GS so you can send your 3D Logo creations to some one James S WI: that doesn't have 3D Logo? AFL GaryJ : (Another good question) MikeW50 : Not at the moment. If there are a lot of requests for it, I'll add one at some point. There MikeW50 : will, of course, be a run time for HyperStudio, and you can move a lot of MikeW50 : 3D Logo programs from there. Frankly, I'm still not sure who's going to use it, and MikeW50 : for what, so we're hanging loose until we see what people want before I start MikeW50 : committing to new features, though. :) ga James S WI: Will the version of Logo for HyperStudio have ALL the same commands? Animation and all? MikeW50 : It won't have the desktop programming copmmands. It will have everything else, including movies. ga James S WI: Thanks! GA AFL GaryJ : Frankly, Frank is next. GA, Frank :) BCS Frank : Does 3D LOGO have the equiv. of PEEK/POKE, or of Xcmds & Xfncs? MikeW50 : No. I'm not sure what you would do with them if they were there, either. You sort of have MikeW50 : to try it to see what Logo is like, but I wouldn't think you MikeW50 : would really need those in Logo. If you have some example of how it MikeW50 : might be used, let me know -- maybe I'm just short-sighted, or maybe there's another way of MikeW50 : doing what you want without those commands. ga BCS Frank : What I had in mind was "dropping out" to run a chunk BCS Frank : of assembly and then returning to LOGO. Is that practical? MikeW50 : No. For one thing, Logo thinks in lists and words, not integers. It's generally not practical for MikeW50 : Logo or LISP to talk top other languages, since the other languages aren't built to handle the MikeW50 : same sorts of tasks. ga BCS Frank : Really in its own world. GA MikeW50 : Yep. I'll give an example later, once the questions are handled. ga BCS Frank : Thanks :) AFL GaryJ : Thanks, Frank. Lavonne is next. GA LavonneS : Will the HyperLogo movies be handled like quicktime? Could they be exported as QT movies? MikeW50 : They are handled a lot like QuickTime, but the format used is the PaintWorks format. For MikeW50 : HyperLogo, it will be modified slightly, but not to the full QuickTime format -- that's built for MikeW50 : disk-based systems, and the GS disks and SCSI cards aren't generally fast enough to handle it. ga LavonneS : ga AFL GaryJ : Thanks, Lavonne. Hari Figg is next. GA Hari Figg : When you're finished with Logo, how about Display Postscript for the IIgs? }:> MikeW50 : Sure... in myy spare time. :) AFL GaryJ : :) James S WI: ! Hari Figg : :) AFL GaryJ : GA, James James S WI: In this issue if the C users Journal there is an artical about a PD utility with C source James S WI: will dsplay and print Postcript! ;) AFL GaryJ : Neat :) James S WI: Sorry to get off the topic but Hari asked. AFL GaryJ : Ok, any other questions or comments for Mike? MikeW50 : GO for it -- let me know when it's done. :) AFL GaryJ : (It was related to the question James, thanks) AFL GaryJ : GA, Frank BCS Frank : Any chance of 3D LEGO/LOGO? :) AFL GaryJ : :) MikeW50 : Yes. The main thing standing in the way is that LEGO is currently doing strange things with MikeW50 : their interfaces. They actually put a crypto. chip on it, and won't let 3rd parties access their MikeW50 : latest hardware! Roger is trying to explain the concept of brain-death, and the many uses for BCS Frank : Well... a mini- motor driving system then, with a "regular" I/O card. MikeW50 : the biological neural net they reputedly have between their ears. If he's successful, we'll support MikeW50 : their stuff. If not, there are other interfaces for LEGO. :) ga BCS Frank : Very strong wishes for luck, there! :) GA AFL GaryJ : Lavonne is next. GA LavonneS : Any possibility of development of alternative robotic controls other than Lego? MikeW50 : There are several, but the distribution isn't as good. We'll use one (or more) of them if LEGO MikeW50 : doesn't come through. ga MikeW50 : (Door prize time?) AFL GaryJ : Now's probably a good time to do your experiment :) AFL GaryJ : Yes :) Sheppy : Go for it... :) LavonneS : Roger could distribute his own robotic kit. It would be a big seller! MikeW50 : OK, folks. I'd like to announce what I think is the FIRST EVER universal door price at an AOL MikeW50 : conference! Everyone wins! Barnabas : Must be some sorta ketch... :) AFL GaryJ : (Too bad some people left :) BCS Frank : Everyone!!!??? AFL GaryJ : Just in time, Softy :) MikeW50 : Here's the deal. 3D Logo retails for $95. During the introductory period (through Nov), we're MikeW50 : offering it for $50. For those of you at this conference, if you order in the next 48 hours, you MikeW50 : get an _additional_ $10 off -- for a price of $40!!! If you _already_ have 3D Logo, you can claim a MikeW50 : $10 cirtificate, good for your next purchasse. And I'd like MikeW50 : to mention that if you take advantage of this offer, you'll get your 3D Logo in time for our MikeW50 : seminar series in Oct, where there will be 4 fun filled nights of personal instruction, tips, & MikeW50 : programs using 3D Logo! ga AFC Softy : <-- always had great timing :) AFL GaryJ : Wow. That's a good deal. BCS Frank : You -do- know how to prize a door! :) Barnabas : Throw in S&H, and it's a deal! MikeW50 : Sorry -- S&H is extra. :( $5 in the US; ask if you're in another coutry. ga Barnabas : Oh, well, worth a shot ;) MikeW50 : You can claim your door prize by e-mail. :) AFL GaryJ : That's a great deal, Mike. Claim by e-mail? You mean, order by e-mail? BCS Frank : <--- looking for my e-stamps.... Barnabas : Oh, in which case there's no S&H? AFL GaryJ : (I was just going to ask how we acknowledge the discount offered when we order) MikeW50 : Yup. If you're not familiar with ordering by e-mail, drop me a note or ask here and I'll go over MikeW50 : the process. ga Barnabas : (Oh, you mean, WE Email YOU... :) AFL GaryJ : Right, Greg :) MikeW50 : Hey... just mention the price. I'll figure it out. :) Barnabas : Well, I'm working on a program over here on my other Mac, and debugging it on the GS... all at the Barnabas : same time... :) AFL GaryJ : The documentation doesn't fit through the modem too well :) AFL GaryJ : Can you tell us real quick what you're going to cover in your seminar? BCS Frank : AFC Softy : (easy enough to verify.... just scan the chat log for screen nanes after the AFC Softy : announcement :) AFL GaryJ : (That's what credit card numbers are for, Frank :) Barnabas : Tear it up into little pieces (called BITS), and send it that way... :) MikeW50 : The seminars will cover four topics. There's a lit in the ByteWorks area, as well as a few other MikeW50 : places. This is from memory, so bear with me. :) : MikeW50 : Oct 6: Intro to Logo (concepts, basics) MikeW50 : Oct 13: 3D graphics & realistic 3D displays MikeW50 : Oct 20: Making movies with 3D Logo MikeW50 : Oct 27: Desktop programming MikeW50 : ga AFL GaryJ : Thanks. Sounds like it'll get people going with the language. AFC Softy : Times?? BCS Frank : Yup... matches your posts on the classes. AFL GaryJ : On Wednesdays at 9:00? MikeW50 : Time is 9PM eastern. There's a great piece about it in our area, too. Since some folks have missed MikeW50 : it, maybe you could grab it and post it in the places you look! ga AFL GaryJ : Thanks. (I'll have to re-post that :) LavonneS : Mike what reference do you recommend or is the documentation actually going to cover it all? MikeW50 : For the seminars, the documentaion will be enough. For outside references, I'd MikeW50 : recommend "Explaring Language with Logo" (does AI style language processing in Logo) and MikeW50 : "Computer Science Logo Style" (3 volumes; does it all!) ga Barnabas : Is the little Turtle thing in 3D also? MikeW50 : No, actually the turtle isn't 3D. It was too slow that way. It does _turn_ in 3D, though. (Sort MikeW50 : of have to see it, I guess.) ga Barnabas : (Some folks don't know we're approaching my 10th anniversary of computer (Apple II) programming this Barnabas : fall. I got my start programming Apple Logo (still have some of those programs). BCS Frank : Can we edit in & out turtles? :) Sheppy : Some folks don't care, either, Greg. Sheppy : :) AFC Softy : (oooh.... :) Barnabas : I just meant, it might be cool to get back into Logo after 10 years... AFL GaryJ : Well, he did manage to relate that to the topic, Eric :) Sheppy : Oh, yeah. :) MikeW50 : Frank, I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Could you try again? ga BCS Frank : Ahh.. the "cursor," can it be changed, BCS Frank : to put in a turtle, a pen, or other object? MikeW50 : No, the turtle's shape can't be changed. There are, of course, other ways to animate things -- MikeW50 : even without movies. ga LavonneS : Me too, Commmodore 64 LOGO with primary special ed kids ages 5 to 9 ten years ago! AFL GaryJ : That's neat. I hope 3D Logo catches on. LavonneS : They did great too. It opened a whole new world to them. They controlled that little turtle. LavonneS : Hope to spark similar excitement with HyperLogo in HyperStudio BCS Frank : Mike, at what point in programming would you BCS Frank : switch from using LOGO to, say, Pascal? MikeW50 : It depends on what you're doing. If you want to do 3D graphics, even 2D graphics; movies; or if you MikeW50 : want to try some artificial intellegence, I'd say switch from _Pascal_ to _Logo_! It's a better MikeW50 : language for it! :) ga AFL GaryJ : Ok, our official chat hour is up, and Mike is welcome to stay after the chat as long as he is able to, AFL GaryJ : but I'd like to thank him for coming tonight and discuss 3D Logo! MikeW50 : Thanks for having me, Gary. With your permission, I'll hang around until any questions peter out. AFL GaryJ : That's exactly what I was hoping you'd do (I wasn't trying to run anyone off - I just wanted AFL GaryJ : to make this part of the chat a little less formal) BCS Frank : Hmmm... Can I set up "Expert Systems" in 3D LOGO? MikeW50 : Yes. Logo is LISP without the parenthesis. You can do just about anything in Logo that you can do MikeW50 : in Lisp -- and because of turtle graphics, not to mnention MikeW50 : movies and 3D, a few things that LISP can't do. LavonneS : Mike, who are the authors and/or publishers of Exploring Language with Logo and Computer Sci-Logo/ AFC Softy : Programming with a "LISP" can generate a lot of syntax errors. :) MikeW50 : Exploring Language: Goldenberg & Feurzeig MikeW50 : Comp. Sci. Logo Style: Harvey MikeW50 : Both MIT press, I think. Bookstores can order them. The latest Books in Print says Comp. Sci. MikeW50 : isn't (in print, that is). Tell them to order it anyway -- it's a mistake. BCS Frank : Is there a possibility of a IIe/c version? ... "2D LOGO, perhaps? :) Sheppy : I bet MIT press is happy about that misprint. :) MikeW50 : Probably not (an 8 bit version). Logo is small for a GS, but it's pretty big for an 8 bit machine. BCS Frank : Are there GS equipment requirements? AFA AndyW : Mike, what's the current status of the other ORCA languages?? AFC Softy : Mike.... can 3D Logo be used for any sort of program?? Even a full application? AFC Softy : (get Andy's ? first. :) MikeW50 : The system requrements are 1.25M and a 3.5" floppy. It will run in less, but since the Finder Barnabas : 2D Logo has already been done on the IIe/c, of course. MikeW50 : requires that much now, I didn't test it for a lower limit. Sheppy : Apple Logo is pretty tough to find these days, though. MikeW50 : Other ORCA languages: Pascal is 2.0.1, C is 2.0.1, ORCA/M is 2.0.3. If you want more detail, let me MikeW50 : know. MikeW50 : 3D Logo can be used for just about anything, but there are some things it's good at, and some things MikeW50 : other languages are better at. You probably have an idea after MikeW50 : tonioght, but if you have a specific project in mind, let me know and I'll tell you what I'd pick. AFA AndyW : What's the difference between M 2.0 and M 2.0.3? (Anything besides the shell AFA AndyW : and the 6.0.1 files) BCS Frank : Do 3D LOGO programs save easily to text for easy posting here on AOL? :) AFL GaryJ : :) MikeW50 : 3D Logo programs save as SRC files. For straight uploading, you'll have to convert the file type to MikeW50 : TXT, but that shouldn't be to tough. If you don't have LavonneS : Thanks Mike, good chat. MikeW50 : the software to do it (i.e. ORCA) e-mail it to me, and MikeW50 : I'll convert iot for you. BCS Frank : SRC? AFL GaryJ : SRC Should be fine for most people. MikeW50 : Thanks for comming, Lavonne! Hope to see you in the seminars. AFA AndyW : You can use File-A-Trix to change the type/auxtype.. AFL GaryJ : SouRCe code file. AFC Softy : Mike... any luck yet getting the info out of Apple for the 6.0.1 Prog. Ref? BCS Frank : Ahhh.. thanks :) MikeW50 : SRC is an ASCI format used by programming languages, Frank. Internally, it's the same as AFC Softy : (I'm *really* hurting for it... :) GNO Jawaid: Mike, how do you deal with business receipts? Do you throw 'em in a shoebox? MikeW50 : TXT, but it uses the aux type to identify which language it's for. AFA AndyW : What's the language number for 3D Logo? MikeW50 : Now, Jawaid -- I put them in a trash bag, then save themn for 6 years in case the IRS wants to do an MikeW50 : audit. :) GNO Jawaid: Okay, trash bag sounds good to me. :) AFC Softy : (the big 33 gallon size... :) AFL GaryJ : 6.0.1 Prog Ref info hasn't been given to Mike from Apple yet, Softy. AFC Softy : AFL GaryJ : We need to bug some person at Apple and make him feel more guilty. MikeW50 : A Logo source file is 274. A stand-alone Logo program is 3090. AFL GaryJ : Stand-alone? MikeW50 : Well, Finder-launchable. AFL GaryJ : How does one create the Finder-launchable version from a SRC file, if the language AFL GaryJ : is interpreted? AFL GaryJ : (Trying to understand the concept) MikeW50 : Gary, when you Open a Logo program, the Finder sends it to Logo -- which recognizes from the file type MikeW50 : that it's a program, and runs it. AFL GaryJ : So, the only real difference between the files is the file type? AFL GaryJ : (Or is there something else?) MikeW50 : Yes. Inside, they are just ASCII. AFL GaryJ : Ok. I understand (now :) AFA AndyW : It's just that one is set up to launch the LOGO application that runs the AFA AndyW : LOGO source file.. AFC Softy : That's like EXE and S16 files then, right?? AFC Softy : (same code... just different Ftypes.. :) MikeW50 : Sort of. The difference is what happens when you open the file from the Finder. For a Logo MikeW50 : source file, 3D Logo enters the editor. For a program, 3D Logo runs it and quits. AFA AndyW : No, it's like opening an AWGS document, and having AWGS get run.. MikeW50 : Well, that does mean that a Logo program _works_ like an S16 file from the Finder. You still AFA AndyW : If the Finder icons get messed up, it won't work at all! MikeW50 : double-click to launch it, and come back to the fFinder when you're done. MikeW50 : Tru about the Finder icons, of course. AFA AndyW : Does the LOGO application have an rBundle, or are there icon files? Sheppy : or both? MikeW50 : 3D Logo has an rBundle. AFC Softy : Ahhh... so you need also the Logo interpreter online to run anything then? MikeW50 : Yes... you do need the interpreter to run any program. AFA AndyW : Mike, if I'v upgraded to C 2.0.1, other than the 6.0.1 macro files, do I AFL GaryJ : (Until enough people request a run-time version, at least :) AFA AndyW : really need to update from M 2.0 to M 2.0.3? MikeW50 : Right, Gary. :) MikeW50 : Andy, it's up to you -- the environment stuff is the same, and nothing major changed in the AFC Softy : Would the interpreter be licensable then? That is if you wanted to distribute GNO Jawaid: Mike, are you familiar with Paul Lutus' GraForth? If so, how do you think AFC Softy : something done in Logo? GNO Jawaid: 3D Logo compares? MikeW50 : assembler. You may or may not need the macros, of course. AFA AndyW : Ok.. Thanks.. MikeW50 : Jawaid, I haven't played with GraForth. The way Forth is written, though, there would certainly be MikeW50 : some similarities. Both are threaded interpreted languages. Sheppy : Speaking of the assembler, why would I want to upgrade from 1.x to 2.x (aside Sheppy : from recognition of real tabs). :) MikeW50 : Most of the changes in the 2.0 assembler are in the environment. The big changes were support for MikeW50 : GS/OS (i.e. long path names & FSTs), tabs, more commands in the shell, & a completely reworked MikeW50 : editor. If ouy'd like a detailed list, drop me an e-mail note to remind me (and give me your address) MikeW50 : and I'll send you some printed stuff with the major changes klisted. Sheppy : Well, I've already got the shell and utilities and editor. I'm looking for a Sheppy : good reason to upgrade the assembler. :) GNO Jawaid: Ooh, a quickie. For the 2.0.1 upgrade for testers, do I just mail you a check GNO Jawaid: with a note? MikeW50 : Jawaid: Yes. Be sure & check the price -- do you have 2.0 already? If so, it's $7. If not, a bit MikeW50 : more. :) GNO Jawaid: Gotcha. Thanks. MikeW50 : Sheppy, the assembler changed to support all of those features, too. The old one doesn't MikeW50 : know about GS/OS, tabs, etc. GNO Jawaid: Is it "Byteworks" or "The Byte Works"? I've never figured that out :) Sheppy : Okay... MikeW50 : Byte Works, Inc. AFL GaryJ : That's what the mailers say. AFA AndyW : BRB.. AFL GaryJ : (But of course AOL has keyword "Byteworks") AFL GaryJ : That's what makes it confusing. MikeW50 : My GEnie e-mail name is byteworks, too. I guess they don't like spaces. :) AFC Softy : Mike... in case you missed my ?.... is the Logo interpreter licensable? Say... AFC Softy : if you had something in Logo that you wanted to distribute? AFC Softy : (just curious.. :) MikeW50 : Logo is interpreted. For the stand-alone version, there is no way to distribute a commercial MikeW50 : program (yet). You will be able to do it via HyperLogo, though. MikeW50 : Well, I better leave. Just a reminder for the late arrivals, though: There will be a series MikeW50 : of Logo seminars in October (details in several places, including our iundustry connection area), MikeW50 : and anyone who came tonight is intitled to the universal MikeW50 : door prize of $10 off the already discounted price for 3D Logo! If you're interested, and missed the MikeW50 : details earlier, drop me an e-mail note! Sheppy : Adios, Mike. BCS Frank : Many thanks, Mike, for the chat, and for your "gift of languages." AFL GaryJ : Mike, thank you very much for coming this evening! I've enjoyed it. AFL GaryJ : And thanks for the special offer! AFL GaryJ : And thanks for supporting the Apple II! MikeW50 : I just got a flash note asking how to order door MikeW50 : prixzes, so here it is: MikeW50 : e-mail the following to me: MikeW50 : Your name MikeW50 : The mailing address MikeW50 : A VISA or MC card # MikeW50 : What you are ordering and what you expect to pay. FOr MikeW50 : 3D Logo, for the next 48 hours, that's $40 plus S&H, which is $5 in the U.S. If you want to pay by MikeW50 : check, send the same info (except the credit card MikeW50 : stuff) to us my mail. And, if you'd like more information about 3D Logo or any other of our MikeW50 : products, send me a message with your name, address, and what you would like to know abouit. MikeW50 : (Oh -- for the VISA or MC card #, be sure & include an expiration date) Barnabas : Well... should I or shouldn't I?... Barnabas : (Hmmm...) BCS Frank : Of course you should, Barnabas.... BCS Frank : Life's too short anyway! Barnabas : Yes, but the same can sometimes be said of Money... :) MikeW50 : Well... any other questions before I bail? Barnabas : Mike's been arrested?!? AFL GaryJ : Anyone? Barnabas : :) MikeW50 : Barnabas: There's a 30 day money back garantee, too. :) AFA AndyW : I guess orders for multiple items can be sent along with it... Barnabas : Really? So if I get it within 30 days, I get my money back? :) GNO Jawaid: Mike - you forgot to have them include title to their firstborn! MikeW50 : :) Not exactly, Barnabas. Barnabas : Seriously, this thing is already in stock and shipping, right? MikeW50 : Barnabas: Yes, in stock, and a lot have shipped already. There may be spot shortages at some point, MikeW50 : but at the moment, Jacque has a dozen or so on the shelf, and more comming before we expect those to MikeW50 : be gone. Barnabas : Translation: "Quantities are limited! Act now!" ;) Barnabas : We have 2 days to decide on this thing? MikeW50 : Barnabas: Nope, Translation: "Buy all you want. We'll make more." :) James S WI: lol! GNO Jawaid: heh :) Barnabas : :) But we can send you mail by, say, Thurs., right? MikeW50 : Barnabas, if it's a couple of hours late, I'm not going to cut you off. :) Of course, the $50 price MikeW50 : is good through Nov., and even after that, mail order houses will have it at a discount (probably $55 MikeW50 : or so). MikeW50 : Jawaid: It runs from Oct 2 to )ct 10 this year. It always starts the first full weekend of Oct, and MikeW50 : runs through the next weekend. Barnabas : Hmmm... well, see, I'm not sure what a programmer like me would do with Logo anymore... but its kinda MikeW50 : Plus, you get a pair of 3D glasses! It's the cool look for programmer's this fall. ;) AFA AndyW : The 3D glasses wouldn't help with a green screen monitor.. James S WI: Greg, put it on the shelf next to Intiger BASIC GS. AFL GaryJ : :) Barnabas : I don't have that one, James. AppleSoft was firmly established 10 years ago when I started programmin AFA AndyW : He meant ORCA/IB.. Barnabas : I know, but ORCA/IB wouldn't be very useful for somebody who did everything in AppleSoft, would it? GNO Jawaid: :) MikeW50 : No. IB is a neat program for other reasons, but it's no substitute for AppleSoft. EPM BAAUG : Pshaww... I just finished an office program in, (gasp), COBAL...! MikeW50 : Well, let me try again. Any other last minute questions? :) AFA AndyW : Now, a full fledged BASIC would be nice (Mike!) ;) Barnabas : CoBOL, you mean. MikeW50 : (COBAL -> COBOL) :) AFL GaryJ : ORCA/Cobol. Yeah, that's it. Sheppy : CObo-bo-bo yaaahhwwnnnn.... ;) AFA AndyW : While you're at it, why not an ORCA/APL?? ;) EPM BAAUG : Go-Bawl is a splendid acryn-- AFL GaryJ : I *do* think an ORCA/BASIC would be popular with some people. (Not sure how many, though :) AFL GaryJ : IIGS BASIC Barnabas : I'd like to get Modula 2 first... :) Sheppy : C++! :) BCS Frank : C++? Hmmmm.... EPM BAAUG : Point & Shoot Toolbox Routines... Utopia! MikeW50 : BASIC and C++ are the only two languages I seriously consider writing at this point. There MikeW50 : will be a Modula-2 soon, of course, and we're probably going to publish a Fortran-to-C cross-compiler MikeW50 : for ORCA, too. COBOL is out. Sory. :) Sheppy : Oh, bummer! :) AFL GaryJ : Darn. AFL GaryJ : All that training down the drain :) EPM BAAUG : Again... Sniffle sniffle...! AFA AndyW : A BASIC patterned after QuickBasic (with extensions for tools) would be nice! Barnabas : C++ would also be great, that's what the IIGS needs is some forward-languages! Barnabas : What about a 68040 cross-assembler for ORCA? James S WI: How about 3D BASIC++? ;) MikeW50 : :) AFL GaryJ : :) Barnabas : How about 3DC? Sheppy : :) MikeW50 : Buy folks. If you think of anything else, you can ctahc me in our industry connection area. MikeW50 : Thanks for the fun! AFL GaryJ : Thanks for coming tonight, Mike! AFL GaryJ : It has been fun! Sheppy : See ya, Mike. BCS Frank : Many thanks, Mike! :)