Subj: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-09 22:24:25 EST From: GRMORRISON Msgs: 32 (89-08-27) I'm having some strange problems with my unidisk 3.5 and GS/OS 5.0. The best example is under the orca shell. For some reason the only volume that shows up in the drive is the one which is in the drive when ORCA is executed even when I eject and add a new disk. I can catalog .d5 and I get the directory for the disk in there when ORCA was executed. (I also get the exact same results with APW 1.0). If I boot of the 3.5 with the GS/OS system disk and then eject it with the drive button, I get problems when I try to run a new file from the second disk. WHen I tried to run install from the system.tools disk, it kept prompting me for the system.disk--regardless of what I put in the drive. Any ideas? I've installed GS/OS 4 times now witht he installer and the driver is definitely there (confirmed also with nifty list). Gary R. Morrison Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk? 89-08-09 23:00:05 EST From: LDavison I'm having problems which may be related. My 3.5 drives are plugged into a Universal Disk Controller. When GS/OS 5.0 boots, the message "Unidisk3.5 requires a driver..." comes up, even though the Unidisk3.5 driver is installed. After booting up, GS/OS recognizes only the boot drive, not the second drive attached to the UDC. I've tried changing the system speed, and disabling the internal Smart Port (the UDC is in slot 6, so I can use a RAM disk for temporary files). Next, I'll try moving the UDC to different slots. Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-10 01:33:35 EST From: LVirden What I have been seeing is no where nearly as strange, but it is bugging me. Access to my Unidisk seems (perhaps relatively?) significantly slower under SD 5.0 than SD 4.0. I am hoping to find time soon to break out the stop watch and see for sure. Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-10 02:00:32 EST From: Montagne A component of the UniDisk driver is a small piece of code downloaded to the UniDisk3.5 to detect disk switch. This is absolutely neccessary to know when to toss the contents of the cache. It sounds like the cache was not tossed when the volume was switched. A possibility is that some other software in your system may have accessed the UniDisk3.5 firmware directly, causing the disk switch patch to be removed. It would be hard to say for sure without replicating the problem. Can you send information about your hardware configuration, software you are running (include version numbers where possible) Thanks. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-10 02:05:47 EST From: Montagne The UniDisk3.5 controller board sold for the Apple][ is not and never has been compatable with the Apple//GS. It will run only if your system is set to 1mHz. I don't know if this is what you mean by universal disk controller but if it is, try connecting the UniDisk3.5 directly to the disk port connector on the Apple//GS. If it is not the same board, I suspect that the firmware on the card does not support verbatim the same call set as the internal slot 5 implementation. Again, I would try connecting the UniDisk3.5 directly to the disk port. Ray (GS/OS Team Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk Speed 89-08-10 02:23:05 EST From: Montagne Actually, file transfers take no longer. What you are seeing is a higher level of activity, reflected in the LED on the drive. The UniDisk3.5 drive actually has a small computer in it. It uses the disk port as a serial data bus. Command packets are transmitted to the drive from the host computer followed by a data packet (transmitted by the host computer on a write to disk or by the drive on a read from disk). When the drive is accessed, more than one of these transactions occur. In fact, five transactions occur. These are neccessary to detect when the disk is swapped in or out and are used to manage the cache and internal data structures of the operating system. Without these extra transactions the cache could not be implemented on the UniDisk3.5 drive without some risk of media corruption. The extra transactions do not effect file I/O throughput. It still takes 45 seconds to read an entire disk, just as it did on 4.0. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: UniDisk and the UDC 89-08-10 20:52:53 EST From: Matt DTS It doesn't work with 5.0. Instead of generating a driver that can't detect disk-switched conditions (and allowing you to trash disks because you didn't know to install the driver), GS/OS 3.0 will display an alert when it finds an Apple peripheral without a driver. The UniDisk 3.5 driver only claims UniDisks in the internal slot 5 firmware, for reasons Ray always explains more eloquently than do I. Then, when GS/OS tries to generate drivers, it finds a UniDisk without a driver, and doesn't generate a driver for it. I'm sorry this causes you an incompatibility. If it's a UniDisk, you can plug it into the port on the back of the computer. If it's a third-party drive that looks like a UniDisk, the makers of it shouldn't have done that. --Matt Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-10 20:54:28 EST From: GRMORRISON Ray: My current configuration is as follows slot 7 46 Meg Relax with Apple SCSI Rev C partioned to two volumes Smartport has the unidisk3.5 and platinum 5.25 disk daisy chained There's GS RAM+ with 2 megs with a .5 meg ram disk Modem to the GS port in slot 2 and IMWII in GS port in slot 1. I don't have anything else strange other than EasyDrive and ProSel. I know others who are successfully using EasyDrive. Thanks Gary R. Morrison Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & UDC 89-08-10 21:39:26 EST From: LDavison By Universal Disk Controller I mean the Universal Disk Controller Card from Central Point Software. The drives attached are a 800K 3.5 drive from Central Point Software and a 800K 3.5 from Laser (model FD-356). I tried moving the card to slot 5, without success. Tonight was my computer club meeting night, so I tried booting the same disks on a IIGS with Apple drives. That worked, so I know the disks are a good copy of the OS. Looks like I'll have to get in touch with Central Point Software. thanks, Larry Davison Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-11 00:05:33 EST From: AFL Dyfet Larry, technically, it's not Apple's job to support third party products, but the other way around. Part of the problem with the UDC, from what I recall, is that it does not look like 'smartport' firmware, but instead uses the 'older' ProDOS firmware. The older firmware interface did not provide support of diskswitch (just block read, block write, init, and stat), and so, from what I gather from Matt, it is indeed possible that GS/OS is rejecting the card. Dyfet Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-13 05:04:24 EST From: Montagne Plugging a card in is not the same as using slot 5 under GS/OS. GS/OS differentiates between internal and external slots. There are 8 internal slots (0-7) and 8 external slots (8-15). When you plug a card in an external slot, GS/OS represents the external slot as it's conventional slot number plus eight. External slot 5 is represented in GS/OS as slot 13. On to the problem.... The code that generates the dialog display and rejects the generated driver looks only at the device ID word in the device information block. If the device ID word is that of a UniDisk3.5 and no loaded driver exists, the generated driver is rejected. The reason that no slot check is conducted is that the design was based on detection of an Apple// UniDisk control card (which actually is not compatable with the Apple//GS - so we wanted to reject the driver). I was personally unaware of the third party card you are using. Next time around I will remedy the situation. Unfortunately, there is no work around for now unless the manufacturer of the universal disk controller card you are using wishes to write a loaded driver for their device. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Slow Unidisk? 89-08-13 06:23:10 EST From: LVirden Okay, here is some empirical evidence (at least, the best that I can do early in the am...) I have a GS, ROM 01, A.E. GSRAM 1.5 meg - configured with an 800k ram disk and the other 700k for the system. I have a Uni disk connected to the smart port. I cold boot into a SD 4.0 disk and it takes me 2:29:54 minutes to get to an active cursor in the finder. I cold boot into a SD 5.0 disk and it takes me 2:53:25 minutes to get to an activer cursor in the finder. Note that the only DAs present are the ones supplied with the original disk. Same for inits, fonts, etc. Both disks are formatted with the 2:1 skew, since normally my Apple 3.5 disk is my boot disk. Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-13 11:20:42 EST From: Chinook4 System Disk 5.0 is "larger" then 4.0 so that probably explains the difference in performance. Chris Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-13 11:54:06 EST From: AFL Dyfet System 5.0 is also expressed, so load time for the larger object modules should be shorter! Subj: its still larger 89-08-13 12:14:51 EST From: AFA Parik It still takes a bit longer to boot Dave if you don't have a Apple 3.5 or SCSI drive (since both were optomized). For ex, I can tell the difference in booting time on my CMS SD60 connected to a CMS scsi card [its slower than 4.0] , but my sd60 connected to a Apple SCSI boots faster under 5.0. Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-14 22:17:22 EST From: Montagne LVirden, You should consider that the number of bytes loaded on a boot with system 5.0 is almost four times that of system 4.0. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-16 05:04:24 EST From: LVirden Okay - I just wanted to mention why I had earlier indicated that the unidisk seemed to be slower. Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & UDC 89-08-17 21:55:27 EST From: LDavison Thanks for the explanation, Ray. I've called both Central Point Software and Lazer, manufacturing and support of the UDC is now with Lazer, but they don't have circut diagarams yet, let alone firmware listings. Since 5.0 is just released, I don't expect any further updates this year. :) Am I right in thinking a loaded driver for the UDC would not be too difficult to write, since the operating system can generate one on the fly. I have experience in system software, and an assembler, so all I should need is the right documentation. Have to see if I can get ahold of a copy of GS/OS Volume 2, if 5.0 didn't make it obsolete. If/when I get this working I'll upload it, there are probably others who could use it. Thanks, Larry Davison Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-18 00:32:13 EST From: Montagne Larry, 5.0 did not make volume 2 obsolete. You (and anyone else writing a device driver) should be aware that the sample driver source listings included in GS/OS Reference Volume 2 require some additional functionality in the startup call. The driver should be searching for it's hardware in slots 15 through 1 using the GS/OS system service call "DYN_SLOT_ARBITER". Let me explain a little about this call. Should the operating system ever implement dynamic slot switching, it is the DYN_SLOT_ARBITER call which will perform the slot switching. Generally the call requires the 16 bit GS/OS slot in the accumulator as an input and exits with carry clear if the requested slot was granted. Carry will be set if the requested slot was not available. Regardless whether the slot arbiter returns an error, the 16 bit X register returns with a bit encoded slot configuration. The bit corresponding with the GS/OS slot will be set in the X register if that slot was active when the slot arbiter was called. The code that should be added should be something like what follows: lda #$0000 ; request slot 0 for bit encoded slot result jsl dyn_slot_arbiter phx ; save bit encoded slot configuration lda #15 ; start at last slot sta cur_slot @1 lda cur_slot ; request next slot jsl dyn_slot_arbiter bcc @3 @2 dec cur_slot bne @1 bra done @3 insert code here to check for your hardware if hardware not found, branch back to @2. Since the slot configuration at exit may have changed as a result of the search, a special command is included to restore the original slot configuration before exiting the startup call as follows: done plx ; get bit encoded configuration to restore lda #$0300 ; command to restore bit encoded config. jsl dyn_slot_arbiter Other new additions for slot 5 include two bits in the device characteristics word contained in the device information block. Bit 11 should be a '1' if the device is restartable. This means that no pre-initialized data is required to restart the driver. An easy way to make a driver restartable is to have the shutdown call restore any pre-initialized data required at startup. Bit 10 should be a '1' if you do not want the system call 'D_RENAME' to have the ability to rename your device driver. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-20 08:34:12 EST From: GRMORRISON Any suggestions as to why I can't catalog my unidisk3.5? Should I have my dealer make it a dumb 3.5 Apple drive? Gary Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-21 21:44:44 EST From: Montagne Have you installed the UniDisk3.5 Driver??? This driver is absolutely required if you are using the Apple UniDisk3.5 Driver. Further, the UniDisk3.5 drive is only compatable with the Apple//GS when connected to the disk port (when no AppleDisk3.5 devices are on the disk port) or to the last AppleDisk3.5 device and prior to any AppleDisk5.25 devices. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-22 19:06:29 EST From: GRMORRISON I've checked for the unidisk driver and it is on the boot disk plus nifty list shows that it is installed. I have the unidisk connected to the smartport and the 5.25 connected to the unidisk. As far as I can tell, everything is installed correctly. Gary Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-22 23:05:38 EST From: Montagne Sounds strange! Are you using the Finder supplied with the 4.0 disk (which only supported 14 devices)? If you have a way of listing the devices installed by the operating system (such as "list devices" under the exercisor) it might help to have a list posted to help resolve your problem. Ray Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-23 20:11:46 EST From: GRMORRISON Actually, I'm not using the finder. I use a combination of EasyDrive and ProSel8 (16 is on the way). I assume the excerciser I have for ProDOS16 will work? Gary Subj: Try Reordering Your Drivers 89-08-23 20:28:23 EST From: Coach101 I am not familiar with ProSel8, but ProSel16 will only allow you to access the first 9 (I think thats the number) devices in the system. I had a little trouble at first until I realized I could control what order the devices appeared in by ordering the files in the */SYSTEM/DRIVERS directory. Use ProSel8 and get the drivers that contain disk support up to the front of the list of drivers in the */SYSTEM/DRIVERS directory. Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-23 20:41:56 EST From: GRMORRISON Ray: I found my GS/OS exerciser and using D_INFO ($2C) I found that the unidisk was device 5. I then did a status call and it returned a 6 on a non write protected disk. I'm not sure what the interpretation is on that one. Also, the 5.25 disk had a lower device number than the unidisk (they are both connected to the smartport, is that a problem? Gary Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-23 21:38:21 EST From: Montagne Coach makes a good point. Many applications create their own internal device list with a fixed limitation on the number of devices supported by the application. This is not a good idea because the total number of devices that can be supported by GS/OS is actually over 8000 and the operating system device list can grow dynamically when certain devices are installed and under certain conditions (like partitioning a SCSI hard disk). I'm not sure if this is the problem you are experiencing since your UniDisk3.5 appears as device #5. There is also a distinction between the disk port and SmartPort. The disk port is the connector on the back of the system while SmartPort is a software protocol implemented in internal slot 5 to support block devices (AppleDisk3.5, UniDisk3.5, Ram Disk and Rom Disk in this case). The DISK][ is accessed through internal slot 6. Here is a description of the status bits returned in a D_STATUS call with status code $0000 for your reference: Bit 15 = 1 when the block count could not be determined absolutely for the block size specified in the status call. Bit 13 = 1 the device is linked (partitioned). Bit 12 = 1 when the device has an asynchronous task in process in the background. Bit 4 = 1 when the device is online. Bit 2 = 1 when the device is write protected. Bit 1 = 1 when an interrupt is being asserted by the device. Bit 0 = 1 when a disk switch has occurred. It is common for AppleDisk3.5 and UniDisk3.5 devices to return with a write protected status when no media is inserted because the path between the LED/PhotoTransistor pair used to detect the presence of the write protect tab is not blocked with media removed. It appears that the status returned by your drive is correct (if no media was inserted). This looks like it may be an application problem. Try using the Finder and let me know what happens. Ray (GS/OS Team Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-24 22:29:37 EST From: GRMORRISON Ok. I launched the START file on my GS/OS 5.0 and disk and then used it to launch ORCA. From the ORCA shell I did a show units and it said I had the SYSTEM.DISK in .d5. I then ejected the disk and inserted a volume title TEST. I then did another show units command. It still tells me that I have SYSTEM.DISK in .d5 even though that volume is sitting in the disk file cabinet (yes, it is on the wooden desktop, but I didn't think GS/OS was that powerful). When using the finder, everything works fine if I drag the disk icon (in the unidisk) to the trash can and then insert another disk. I have installed GS/OS about 7 times now using the installer script. The last time it was done on a brand new virgin hard disk that was pervisously formatted for a Mac. The only change I made was to delete extra drivers, AppleTalk, and replace the START file with one that will run EasyDrive (which is a disk manager). This whole thing is really driving me crazy. Any other ideas? Gary Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-25 01:00:13 EST From: Montagne A little information on the UniDisk3.5 driver internals... The UniDisk3.5 was implemented using the standard SmartPort protocol and did not support disk switch status or disk switch errors from media access calls (readblock, readbyte, writeblock, writebyte & format). Since GS/OS requires disk switch to manage the cache and the internal data structures of the operating system, a mechanism for supporting disk switch needed to be created for the UniDisk3.5 drive. This is done by downloading a small (64 byte) code segment into the UniDisk3.5 drive to keep track of the disk switch status. It is possible that an application could cause this segment to be unloaded (although highly unlikely) if the application were to issue calls directly to the SmartPort interface. Calls that could cause this to happen include: INIT (which is not safe for any application to use) CONTROL - DOWNLOAD after CONTROL - SETADDRESS I think the only way that you might determine if this is the problem is to use a 'VIRGIN' system 5.0 disk with the UniDisk3.5 driver installed on it and see if the situation is corrected. In the interim, could you post (or repost) your system configuration including slot selections, memory size, peripherals residing in slots and I will try and duplicate your problem. Thanks... Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-26 09:01:03 EST From: GRMORRISON Ray, thanks for the help so far. Here is my configuration: GS RAM+ with 2 meg Slot 7 is Apple SCSI Rev C with a 46 meg relax partioned into a 26 and 20 meg disk (26 meg is drive 1). Using smartport with unidisk 3.5 connected first, and then unidisk 5.25 daisy chained to the 3.5. Using internal slot 2 for modem Using internal slot 1 for printer (IMWII) My disk manager is EasyDrive, however, I can duplicate the problem with ProSel 8 and ProSel 16 when I launch ORCA. I'm pretty sure I tried the same thing with the Finder, but am not sure. Also, when installing my system, I noticed some strange things with the unidisk. For example, if I press OA-E to eject the disk, the finder gets messed up on the next disk in mount in th drive. However, if I drag the disk to the trash can, all works fine. I'll try launching ORCA from the finder later today and see if the problem is duplicated. Gary Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-26 16:03:47 EST From: Montagne Gary, Thanks for the info. This does not sound like an application problem, rather a problem with the UniDisk3.5 driver itself. I'll see what I can find out and let you know. Ray Subj: Re: GS/OS 5.0 & Unidisk 89-08-27 07:50:00 EST From: GRMORRISON I'll eager await your comments. I've talked to Mike Westerfield about it, and he thinks it is GS/OS 5.0. However, I can duplicate the problem with APW (probably not that unusual). Let me confirm that the samething happens with PROSEL16. Also, I get strange results with EasyDrive (a program selector), which will not let me select a system file from the unidisk and launch it, either 8 bit or 16 bit. I think that way may be a software or software/hardware problem as others cannot dupliccate it. Gary Subj: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-11 18:30:11 EST From: MarkM84 Msgs: 20 (89-08-27) I'm generally very happy with GSOS 5.0, but I'm curious about a couple of things. When the "Welcome to the IIGS" message is on the screen, a little opening appears in the top left corner of the frame around the welcome message. This little gap only appears about 2 seconds before GSOS has finished loading. Is this problem in my system only or does everybody see this? Also, some strange things seem to happen to my trash can from time to time. Once, it appeared with only its middle section on the screen. The left and right sides of the trashcan were cut off. Another time, the trash can turned into a great little folder with an Apple on it! Is this normal? I don't have the documentation for the software, so I really don't know. One more thing...If anyone knows how to make Deluxepaint II (version 2.01) launch properly from GSOS 5.0, please let me know! Thanks, --Mark Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-11 20:47:22 EST From: EdwardF4 I've just checked my thermometer, and I can't see the 'blue flicker' that you mention. Perhaps you have a slightly-corrupted Start.GS.OS file? Whatever the trouble is, at least it's non-fatal. The Apple-Trashcan: sounds like you have some duplicate icons somewhere. Try removing all of your icons (rename the directories) except for 5.0's icon files, then see if the problem re-occurs. Then restore your other icon files, one at a time, until you see the trouble repeat itself; then check out the icons in the last file that you added. One of them may have the wrong attributes. :edward Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-11 20:50:11 EST From: Matt DTS The "burst of blue" you see there is an inter-system communications thing the Finder does with the OS and should be ignored. It's harmless. --Matt Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-11 22:11:34 EST From: HsBoyElroy I know what you mean, I noticed the exact same phenomena about two hours before I read your message. I haven't paid enough attention to it to know if it happens regularly or not. Also, has anyone noticed that the thermometer doesn't completely fill up before going to the finder screen? I checked my version 4.0 to see what it did, and it completely fills with red a second or so before changing. This doesn't occur everytime with my 5.0 system.disk, but quite often nonetheless. Of course, none of this seems to affecting the performance (which is great... thanks Apple), but just conspicuous enough to raise my curiosity. Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-12 00:56:25 EST From: GSJohn When I boot from my hard disk the bar stays filled for about two seconds before the Finder screen starts to appear. Also that folder with the apple in it is for the ACTIVE system folder. I've had it appear in place of the full trash can once after I put in a 3.5 disk with some icons that duplicated some of the ones I had on my hard disk. Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-12 01:23:27 EST From: GS Samuel I think the Welcome to GS/OS thermometer fill is based on an estimate of the time it took to load the =last= time you started from that disk. If nothing has changed in your system setup or system.disk since the last time you booted, the thermometer fill will probably finish just about the time GS/OS is finished loading. Subj: Getting DP II to work... 89-08-12 13:50:37 EST From: GuS Grafix Most people are not having problems getting DP II to work under 5.0, but some people are. (I'm one of them) I've yet to figure out what is different about my setup compared to others, so for now the following kludge seems to work the best for me. More details can be found in the General Q & A/System 5.0 compatibility folder in the AGR forum. What I do is temporarily take the ExpressLoad file out of the system folder and "hide" it in a folder named "Hidden" then reboot and run DP II. As soon as I'm done with DP II, I make sure I put ExpressLoad back where it came from. This works for me, but I have no idea why. Some people have found other ways that work for them, including using something called Purge-o-matic, available in the AGR library. I've gotten inconsistent results with P-O-M, for what it's worth. BTW, I've tried various methods of making DP II work with 5.0 on each of 3 different GS's, all of them configured differently, and the ExpressLoad kludge is the only one that works consistently for me. MUCH more detailed info is available in the AGR folder I mentioned above. Hope this works for you. Please let us know what works for you, as I'm still trying to figure this one out! Thanks. Marian Subj: Re: DPAINT II SOLUTION? 89-08-12 15:48:03 EST From: MarkM84 I just got Deluxepaint II to work for me! It looks like my problems were caused by not using the Installer to put GSOS 5.0 on my hard disk. The reason I didn't use the Installer in the first place was because it didn't seem to be able to find my System.Disk and wouldn't install anything. I finally noticed that the copy of the System Disk (that I got from my helpful? Apple dealer) was not named "System.disk". As soon as I renamed the disk and installed the software properly, Deluxepaint worked fine on the first try! Now my GS and I are friends again!! Subj: DP II :( 89-08-13 19:58:49 EST From: GuS Grafix Wish it were that easy for _some_ of us. DP II doesn't like 5.0 on my machine, even when properly installed on my ROM disk via installer OR when 5.0 is booted from floppy and DP II run from a floppy in s5, d2. Marian :( Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-13 22:42:34 EST From: GS Samuel Just a reminder based on info from other folders here: Basic.System 1.3 has a bad bug. Replace it with your earlier version 1.2 of Basic.System until DTS gets the problem fixed. Please confirm this, someone in authority ... Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-14 22:12:39 EST From: Montagne GS Samuel, Matt's recomendation to replace 1.3 with 1.2 was right on. He is in authority. Beleive him. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-14 22:14:28 EST From: Montagne Geez -- Marian, don't shoot me. The previous message should have read 'believe'. Yes, the fingers move faster than the mind. Ray Subj: BLOAD in BASIC.SYSTEM 1.3; DTS 89-08-22 23:43:52 EST From: Dave Lyons GS Samuel--as I noted in a previous folder, the problem with BLOAD in BASIC.SYSTEM 1.3 occurs only when you try to BLOAD over a protected area of memory. (Using 1.2 is, of course, a perfectly good way around the problem.) By the way, Developer Technical Support (for which both Matt and I work) is responsible for (among plenty of other things) working with developers and with Engineering to track down bugs--but fixing them isn't our department. --Dave Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-26 14:27:50 EST From: Whaler2 Under 5.0, my thermometer only fills up 10% at the most, and that is EVERY time! I wondered if anyone else had the same problem. Guess so! Whaler2 Subj: CMS 89-08-27 00:05:39 EST From: AFA Parik The CMS SCSI card disables interrupts during access so basically the wee red bar never does much. The only time it'll move is when your launcher program is being loaded (Finder, ProSEL 16, etc). So you see a wee bit of it come across, and then the start program comes up! The new CMS ROMS should fix it, if they ever ship...;( Subj: Re: Little System 5.0 problems 89-08-27 10:31:20 EST From: JohnBastin Now that I have installed System 5.0 on two hard drives on two different IIgs machines, I find that when I try to back up the drives using Backup II, I get an "Unsupported Storage Type" error and Backup II refuses to proceed. Any solution, someone, PLEASE? JohnBastin Subj: Unsupported Storage Type 89-08-27 11:27:01 EST From: InCognitus John, The unsupported storage type error comes from the extended files (which allow files to have resource forks and data forks, like Macintosh files) that were introduced with system software 5.0. These files are in the CDEV directory of 5.0, and you shouldn't have to back them up every time you do a backup. They can be restored from your original system software disks in the event of a disk problem. Be aware that no current copy or backup utility will copy these files EXCEPT for the Finder (the version that came with 5.0), and disk backup utilities that copy the entire disk image instead of a file by file copy. Gary Subj: "Burst of Blue" 89-08-27 11:49:15 EST From: TMH2 I'm sorry, but that explanation of the "burst of blue" doesn't fly. I get that blue-ness ONLY if I change my files around so that on a particular boot the thermometer "fills up". The blue is written to the black outline in the splash dialog at the same speed that the thermometer was filling, and it stops when the boot finishes, as if the blue was an extension of the red bar. If the blue-ness is the Finder, then explain this. Z^\GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG\_ Z R Z T. Mike Howeth II N Z Dallas, Texas N Z (TMH2) V Z B Q ZO WVWVWVWVWVWVWVWVP_ Subj: Backing Up Extended Files.... 89-08-27 12:43:33 EST From: Coach101 I use ProSel-16's Backup/Restore and it gets the job done. It, so far as I can tell, handles the files with resource forks correctly. Besides that it is FAST. Subj: Backup Utilities 89-08-27 21:52:41 EST From: AFL Floyd Coach is quite correct. ProSel-16's backup function works just fine on extended files. Check out the "Direct Connect" area of the Utilities forum, keyword AUT, for more info on ProSel. Floyd Subj: 5.0 funny stuff 89-08-11 21:32:43 EST From: SEAGO Msgs: 5 (89-08-17) My 5.0 software does funny things like, when loading a new program on to my hard drive, it puts all the desk top icons back in the folders. this is very annoying to say the least. Since i down loaded the software from a-link, and i am expecting the whole package from apple, i am hoping the problems are only in the a-link software. Subj: Finder Options..... 89-08-12 12:02:00 EST From: Coach101 This probably belongs in the AUT (Apple Utilities) conference but it sounds like you need to change/set the Finder preferences. If you have instructed Finder to NOT save Finder information to disk, then the Icons that you place on the desktop are only there until you leave the finder. The trick that I use (I run with the Finder NOT saving Finder information to disk) is to pull an Icon to the desktop, perform a clean-up of the desktop (so all the Icons are orderly arranged), close all open windows (folders) and then to double click on the program I just placed on the desktop WHILE HOLDING THE OPTION KEY DOWN. This causes Finder to remember that the new Icon is to stay on the desktop. I believe that this is exactly the same behaviour (on Finder's part) as existed in 4.0. Hope that helps. Subj: A slightly different approach... 89-08-12 13:43:10 EST From: GuS Grafix Thanks, Coach. I use a different method that also works... I (temporarily) turn the Save Finder Info to disk option ON, then do whatever I want in terms of organizing my desktop then quit using the LAST item on the Shutdown menu...RETURN TO LAUNCHING APPLICATION. This is the same thing as doing an OA-Q in pre-4.0 systems. In the process of returning to the launching application (Finder), the system saves the desktop configuration to disk. I then can turn OFF the Save Finder To Disk option--for greater speed in everyday operations. Marian Subj: Re: 5.0 funny stuff 89-08-12 13:47:33 EST From: GuS Grafix In that last sentence it should read "Save Finder INFORMATION to Disk" Marian Subj: Re: 5.0 funny stuff 89-08-17 02:18:09 EST From: Mark TMM The other way to do the opposite of your menu choice of Saving Finder info to disk is to hold down the Option key when launcing an Application or ejecting a disk via the trash can. If you have it set to save, option will make it not save info. Mark Subj: System 5.0 questions 89-08-11 23:46:31 EST From: JohnKing1 Msgs: 15 (89-08-27) What is the purpose of the "Tutorial" Files on the GS/OS System 5.0? How can I use them? Do I have to have the Installer to put 5.0 on my hard disk, or can I use Copy II+ to replace my 4.0 files? Subj: Re: System 5.0 questions 89-08-12 01:10:51 EST From: GS Samuel It looks like the Tutorial files are nothing more than an example of how subdirectories can be used to make some order out of a little chaos. I'd guess there'll be a couple of pages in the User Manual talking about subdirectories (when it's ready). You'd better use the Installer unless you know exactly which files you need and which of the old ones to delete. Also, on the disk with the Installer, BTW, are some other files needed for some system setups (the new SCSI driver, for example). Some folks have heard rumors about a 3rd disk. If you aren't running an AppleTalk network, apparently you don't need that disk ... Subj: You *MUST* use the Installer!!! 89-08-12 08:43:45 EST From: AFA Gary J You _MUST_ use the Installer to install the System Software 5.0 to your hard disk. This version of System Software introduces files with resource forks, and all previous copy programs (Copy II+ included) will not recognize the structure of these files, and will copy them incorrectly. Strange errors will occur if you try doing it any other way. Gary Subj: Third Disk.... 89-08-12 11:59:01 EST From: Coach101 The third disk is used if you have a network (AppleTalk) that includes a file server. File server software only runs on Macs and the third disk contains software to install on a Mac file server to provide a proper interface to a II-GS running 5.0. The third disk is formatted for use with a Mac. Subj: Finder 1.3 will copy *BUT* ... 89-08-12 13:35:59 EST From: GuS Grafix Finder 1.3 WILL copy files with resources, but what Gary says is correct... especially for creating boot disks, you're MUCH better off using the Installer than trying to Finder file copy files over from System 5.0 disk. The reasons for this are enumerated in detail in a message from MattDTS in another folder below. BTW, Finder 1.3 is the Finder that comes with System Disk 5.0. EARLIER versions of Finder will scr*w up (but not necessarily give you a warning that they've done so) when trying to file copy files with resources. Same thing with Copy II+. Make life simple for yourself and everyone else and just do what Gary said--use the Installer...that's what it's there for. Marian Subj: Re: System 5.0 questions 89-08-13 06:16:44 EST From: LVirden Anyone written any installer scripts? There are two things that I wish for - the first is some way for installer to look at a disk and tell me what it is configured for and the second is to then take that configuration and duplicate it via installer on another system. Why? The first is easy to explain - this way I can tell if a disk is configured for something that I dont need - I dont use AppleTalk, SCSI (yet :-() , Laserwriters, etc. so I would like to have a minimal configuration. The second - to make updating various boot disks quicker - now I have to select numerous options and go thru swapping disks, etc. It would be so much nicer to just go thru it all once... Subj: Basic.System 1.3 89-08-13 15:17:19 EST From: GS Samuel I thought I read it in this forum (but maybe it was on apple/net on pro-sol) that Matt DTS said Basic.System 1.3 (as on the 5.0 GS System.Disk) was a little flaky, and that for the time being he (or was it Apple DTS) was recommending we go back to using Basic.System 1.2 until the bugs are wored out. Am I dreaming? Subj: Re: System 5.0 questions 89-08-13 15:43:18 EST From: GS Samuel This question is rather rhetorical: A certain publisher of GS development software (=not= ByteWorks) says that their new Pascal has been ready for weeks, but system.disk 5.0 has major bugs, and they (the publisher that's not BW) are just waiting for Apple to send them bug fixes before they ship their latest GS Pascal. The less bugs, the better ... But this line being given by this publisher's order/tech folks sounds a little fishy to me. Who knows, maybe they were using beta versions of 5.0 and it takes a long time for DTS to get mail to Florida. :) Subj: Basic.System 1.3 89-08-13 15:45:26 EST From: FeinDavid No, you are not dreaming.... Apple left out an RTS in the code, and when you BLOAD a file, 1.3 automatically goes into the BSAVE code, and writes junk back to your disk. DO NOT USE 1.3!!! GO BACK TO 1.2! David Fein Technical Supervisor Lan-Tech Inc. (Certified Apple Developer) Subj: Re: System 5.0 questions 89-08-13 22:37:56 EST From: GS Samuel So the safe thing to do is replace Basic.System 1.3 with the earlier Basic.System 1.3 on all copies of System 5.0 in a hurry? This would include the disks we've downloaded and unpacked, and any boot disks we've updated (like ROM disks and hard disks). Subj: Re: System 5.0 questions 89-08-13 22:40:58 EST From: GS Samuel Way to mess things up, me! That should have been replace Basic.System 1.3 with Basic.System 1.2 ... I hope that's right! Subj: Loader Problems... 89-08-20 22:40:08 EST From: AFA Parik Does anyone know if the loader in 5.0 has problems loading a program with loadsegs close to 64k? I have 4 loadsegs in my program, the blank one, a loadseg1, dataseg1 and dataseg2. loadseg1 is real close to 60k, and QuitGS just crashes the system. However, if I take one of the segments inside LoadSeg1, and make it LoadSeg2 (effectively having 5 loadsegs) it quits fine! Again, this is not a problem with the program nor the loader, but the quit area of the OS. Its not a real problem, as I can always make sure my loadsegs stay less than 50k, but I'm curious as to why this happens. Subj: Re: Installer 89-08-22 20:57:50 EST From: Dr Who29 I tried using the Installer to put 5.0 on one of my 4.0 disks (using the script for No Finder), but it gave me a disk full error. I should have enough room for 5.0, but without fonts and cdevs. Could it be that the Installer is trying to put those things on my disk? Thanks! Dave Subj: BLOAD in BASIC.SYSTEM 1.3 89-08-22 23:35:51 EST From: Dave Lyons This need a bit of clarification. There is a problem with BLOAD in BASIC.SYSTEM 1.3: there is a situation where it will try to BSAVE over your file instead of loading it. This happens when (and *only* when) part of the area you are trying to BLOAD into is marked "protected" in the ProDOS bitmap. In other words, you would have gotten a "NO BUFFERS AVAILABLE" message using BASIC.SYSTEM 1.2. This is a bug. (But it isn't *flakey*; it's very predictable.) --Dave Subj: Writing Installer Scripts 89-08-27 23:33:01 EST From: Jump Long LVirden: Apple IIGS Technical Note #64 will tell you all about the Installer and Installer scripts. It's in the July batch of Apple II Technical Notes (which should be appearing in text format any day). We don't recommend installing any of Apple's system software with your own Installer scripts, though. That has already caused problems for at least one developer who used the Installer to install system software 4.0 along with their application. (it runs over system software 5.0 - ooops :) GS/OS Technical Note #1 tells what files do what on System.Disk and System.Tools. This Technical Note was updated in July to reflect the changover to system software 5.0. You could use the information provided in that Technical Note to decide which files to delete from your boot volume. -JML Subj: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-12 19:15:30 EST From: MASSUSER Msgs: 42 (89-11-11) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RENAME FUNCTION???? Subj: Rename Happens With One Click.. 89-08-12 21:13:00 EST From: Coach101 If you click on an Icon's name (i.e., the file name in Finder) you will see that the cursor changes to indicate that you can edit the name. Only ONE click is needed. Subj: GENERAL QUESTION 89-08-13 12:46:01 EST From: AFL Dyfet I have become aware of the fact that a LOT more System boot disks have been downloaded than tool disks. You SHOULD be aware that BOTH disks are required for MOST hardware configurations. Many important drivers, especially for proper harddisk support, are present on the second disk... Dyfet Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-13 14:33:27 EST From: RobertG117 I have downloaded and unpacked the 5.0 system disc. When trying to open a tutorial I get the message "no application found for this document". Does this have anything to do with not downloading the tools yet? What does this systme do that my original one won't? Original pruchased in Nov 88. Will appreciate your response either by E-mail or here. Bob Graham Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-13 15:02:05 EST From: GS Samuel The pros will correct me where I'm wrong: The "tutorial" folder seems to be just an example of how to set up subdirectories (folders) and is probably referred to in the manual that comes with the set the dealers will have for public consumption (for those of you who would rather plunk down about $40 to get a user's manual and disks with Apple's labels on them). The CLARIS AWGS developers seem to think that the new and good things about system.disk 5.0 far outweigh any problems and that you'd be better off using system.disk 5.0 than earlier versions. Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-13 16:41:19 EST From: RobertG117 Thanks. Any answer for why I keep getting the "no application found for this document" message? Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-13 19:53:26 EST From: GuS Grafix Robert, Like Sam said, the TUTORIAL folder contains EMPTY, dummy documents that are intended for use in learning how to use the Finder. Their IS no application that will open them...there is nothing in them--they are dummy documents, just like Copy II+ has some dummy subdirectories on it to illustrate some of the information in ITS manual. Make sense? Marian Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-13 22:32:06 EST From: GS Samuel I suppose this has been answered eons ago ... Must a program file be in a root directory for you to be able to run it by clicking on a document file? I've never had any luck with being able to click on documents to run programs when the program file was in a subdirectory (folder). However, if I click on the document, and then after getting the message "No program file for this application...", I then click on the program file, the program will run and will bring up the data file I'd first clicked on. I do have to remember to save to the right subdirectory, though. If I just choose OA-S, then the file will get saved to the directory the program file is in. Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-14 00:58:36 EST From: Riley4 To: GS Samuel I think the problem you are having when trying to open an application that is in a subdirectory by double clicking on one of its documents has to do with the icon for that document. Each icon has a pointer to its application (if one exists), and it sounds like the document icons you have don't point to the right location for the applications in question. Try using one of the icon editors (ICONED is nice, but I'm not sure whether, nor where, it might be available on ALPE) to examine your icons for the application pathnames, and change these pathnames as needed. Regards, Riley Subj: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-15 00:05:36 EST From: AFL Dyfet From what I understand and recall, the tutorial folder is NOT even mentioned in the manual :). It's simply there to be played with, so you can practice with the Finder. Dyfet Subj: For practice? :) 89-08-15 00:28:53 EST From: AFA Gary J Yeah, the tutorial files are just there for practice. I practiced using the trash can with mine :) Gary Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-15 18:08:59 EST From: GSJohn If the Finder can't find the application for a document and you cancle, then open the application yourself, won't Finder modify the pathname for the icon itself? Boy, now that's a sentence. GSJohn Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-15 20:36:09 EST From: Matt DTS No, John. Several people said it would (maybe even Apple), but it doesn't and never did. Would be nice, though. :) --Matt Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-15 23:29:11 EST From: PaulMonroe Just got a copy of 5.0 from my dealer today only to find that Murphy's Law is still on the books. When using the installer I selected "New System Files" to be installed and Hard 1 as the destination and went to install. The installer said to put in the system tools disk which I did, then it asked for the system disk, which I put in the drive but when I click on the "OK" box the installer just keeps asking over and over again thet I put in the system disk! What am I doing wrong??????? Subj: name 89-08-16 12:40:03 EST From: AFA Parik For some reason the System Disk was renamed when sent to some dealers. You must name it /System.Disk, it probably is /System.DiskA, right? Subj: Re: Updating the Icon Info 89-08-16 19:34:01 EST From: Montagne Actually, once you launch the application and open the document you are no longer in the Finder, but in the Application. It makes more sense if the application could update the Icon. It might even make more sense if a tool set supported the function. Any thoughts? Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-16 21:00:09 EST From: PaulMonroe AAHH SOOOOO! Thanks Parik, no they didn't have the disk named "/system diskA" just "SYS.DISK" and "SYS.TOOLS" ARRAGAHHH! Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-19 09:44:53 EST From: JosephY3 I just downloaded and unshrunk 5.0. I open the installer and it launches, but it says "GS/OS version 2.1 or higher required". I'm using 4.0 and must be doing something wrong. Can you help? Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-19 10:32:03 EST From: AFL Dyfet You MUST BOOT from the GS/OS System Boot disk, and then select the installer. Installer should NOT be run directly from older versions of GS/OS! Dave Subj: Re: Rename 89-08-22 20:53:09 EST From: Dr Who29 One minor thing though... You must press the Return (or Enter) key for the rename to take place. (I guess that's to prevent accidental renaming.) Dave Subj: Installer & GS/OS ver; Finder icons 89-08-22 23:25:23 EST From: Dave Lyons System Software 4.0 contains GS/OS 2.0, so the message the Installer gave makes sense. I believe the System Software 4.0 user manual claims that the Finder will automatically remember new document-application associations. But it's a lie: to date, no version of the Finder does that. Somewhere there is or will be a manual that uses the Tutorial files as examples. (I'm sure I'm not imagining it...I have a draft of it lying around someplace. I thought it was out there already, but it may not be.) --Dave Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-23 19:57:47 EST From: AFC JoyceM RE: RE-NAMING FILES/FOLDERS. In the last Development Chat, I asked why I cannot re-name a folder. I was told to do the following: Click once in the blue background and then click on the folder. Then start typing the new name for the folder, when you are done press return and its renamed." This answer was from Jim Mensch. I tried this and when I hit return I get the message that says that I can do that because the folder is open. I cannot rename a folder. I finally used Copy II+ to make the name change, it worked, but used both upper and lower case letters...I had done them in all upper case. Now what? Do appreciate any help you can give me. Joyce Subj: Renaming 89-08-24 23:18:45 EST From: AFL Floyd Joyce, When you click on the blue background and then click on a folder or file you should see an I-Beam cursor when you move the mouse pointer over the TEXT of the name. When that happens you know that by typing, or clicking with the I-Beam cursor to set the insertion point, one can rename the file/folder. You can't rename a file unless the I-Beam cursor is able to be shown. When you move the I-Beam cursor away from the TEXT it switches back to the arrow cursor. Floyd Subj: Did you close the folder? 89-08-25 02:19:48 EST From: A2Pro Tim Was the folder actually open? If so, did you try closing it, then try renaming it? I've renamed tons of folders from the Finder under 5.0, but all of them were closed at the time... Tim S. Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-25 20:53:16 EST From: AFC JoyceM Tim and Floyd: I have gotten the I-beam cursor and typed in the name, and after hitting the Return key, I get the message that I cannot do this because the folder is open. I have 'opened' and not 'opened' the folder per se, that is either it, the folder itself, is either black or white. I still cannot rename a folder. I am sure it is some trick that I am not following thru with. I will retry with both of your suggestions and get back to you. Thank you all again, Joyce Subj: Finder 89-08-27 21:55:25 EST From: AFL Floyd Most strange since you can rename folders that are open anyway. At least I can when I tried it. I tried all sorts of things and couldn't duplicate your error message. BTW, discussions about the Finder should take place in the Utilities forum under the "Program Selectors/Finder" topic. :) Floyd Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-28 20:20:09 EST From: AFC JoyceM Thanks, Floyd, I will go to the UTilities area, but I now know the answer. I am trying to re-name a folder in the system file, from Start to Old.Start, and I am told that for protective reasons (for ourselves!), 5.0 won't let you do this. Thanks for all the help. Joyce Subj: START Is Not A Folder... 89-08-28 20:31:47 EST From: Coach101 Its a program... It is FINDER actually.... In order to rename it you will have use some other program... I used ProSel-16 to do it for me. Subj: And... Finder Is Busy 89-08-28 20:33:30 EST From: Coach101 Since you are using Finder to attempt the re-name operation it is busy... You could rename any other program or you could rename the START file on a disk other than the boot disk frow within FINDER. Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-28 22:00:43 EST From: SkipS I'm having a problem with some of my old backup diskettes from 4.0. When I try to open the diskette (point-double-click-on diskette) the system crashes with the message 'ICON FILE IMAGE DAMAGED'. I have several like this. One is Defender of the Crown (original, not a copy). Is there something about the old ICON images that are not compatible with 5.0? Thanks for any help. I would like to be sure my backups are valid. -Skip Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-08-28 22:57:41 EST From: HyperRam You have to make a copy of DOTC and remove the icon-I did that because the icon was imcompatible. Ram Subj: I was wrong.... 89-08-31 02:54:41 EST From: A2Pro Tim Well, let me pull my feet out of my mouth and try again here. You _CAN_ rename a folder while it's open under 5.0 (I did it many times just to be sure). Joyce's REAL problem was that she was trying to rename a FILE and the file really was open (just like the error message said it was). I used BASIC to rename START - works fine and its on the System Disk already (ProSel-16 isn't, so that's not a UNIVERSAL solution). Other alternatives of course include MERLIN, ORCA, APW, Davex, etc. Tim S. Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-09-04 15:18:01 EST From: WilliamF26 I have a question about using SYSTEM 5.0 while printing a report in AWGS. I boot sys 5.0 and use AWGS (updated version) and ask it to print the report. It prints the report just fine but, after it prints the computer locks up and the only way out is to warm 'REBOOT'. I downloaded from ALink so I don't have any manuals but I did exactly as the instructions stated. When I used the system disk that came with AWGS I do not have this problem. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks William Fleming Subj: GetDirEntry 89-09-05 00:00:12 EST From: AFA Parik Can someone tell me the best way to process a close if I'm using getdirentry? I currently parse the complete pathname looking for the last "/" or ":" (if there is only one, I assume close is unusable) and use a length_byte of the last / or : -1. Is this kosher? Subj: Re: CLOSE 89-09-05 00:38:04 EST From: Montagne Parik, Not sure what you're after since a close is by reference number. Can you be more specific? Ray Subj: close? 89-09-05 19:53:29 EST From: AFA Parik Close? Huh? Oh, I mean the "Close" button you see in a SFdialog to move around in directories. The sftools take up 160 or so blocks so I just use my own cat routines using GetDirEntry. I got disk, open, cancel working according to "the rules" but I'm unsure as to how to do a CLOSE dialog (so it'll move to the previous subdirectory... ie /CMS/STUFF/DUDE turns into /CMS/STUFF). I go backwards in the string looking for the first /, take one away, and use this as a pathname for the GetDirEntry opened directory/subdirectory. Subj: simulating Standard File 89-09-05 20:57:48 EST From: Dave Lyons Parik, Standard File does *not* take up 160 blocks...no. It *does* do some pretty fancy stuff that you'll be missing out on by doing it yourself--for example, it notices when changes are made to a network volume & redisplays the list automatically. You'll also miss out on future enhancements made to Standard File. Anyway, a correct way to remove the last segment of a pathname is to first call ExpandPath on it, and then scan backwards from the end for the first ":" that isn't the very last character, and chop it off there. --Dave Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-09-05 21:48:07 EST From: Montagne Standard file is part of the Tool Set. I just automatically took CLOSE as an operating system question (after all, this it's in the OS forum). Sorry. Subj: : and / 89-09-05 21:52:14 EST From: AFA Parik Dave, I mean the tools it requires (plus TS2) takes up 160 blocks. sorry for the misunderstanding. Ray - meant it as a OS since i'm asking more of a GetDirEntry (and as Dave pointed out ;) a ExpandPath call. 4.0 also will replace all "/"s with ":"s? Great! Thanks! Subj: Re: SYSTEM 5.0 QUESTIONS 89-10-23 22:42:30 EST From: CLM1 I have downloaded and unpacked system 5.0, but when I tried to boot the disk it crashed. On the opening screen with the the red bar that moves left to right across the screen, the bar gets about halfway and then the program locks up. Subj: System Software 5.0 crashing? 89-10-24 20:57:26 EST From: Dave Lyons CLM1, please describe your hardware--ROM version, amount of RAM, and peripheral cards installed. Also list the Control Panel settings for Slots and RAM Disk. That should help someone figure out what's happening to you. --Dave Subj: system 5.0 questions 89-11-11 00:55:27 EST From: CLM1 I'm not sure about what ROM version my computer has but it was purchased in December of 1988. I have 1.25 meg. of memory and the only peripherals I have attached are two 5.25 drives, one 3.5 drives, mouse, keyboard, Imagewriter II, 1200 Baud Hayes Compatible, and monitor. The only card plugged in inside the computer is a memory expansion board with all banks full of chips. I have system 4.0 and it works fine. Slot 1 is set for Printer port, 2 is Modem port, 3 is Built in Text Display, 4 is Mouse port, 5 is Smart port, 6 is Disk port, and 7 is Your card. The startup slot is 6. My RAM disk is set all the way to 0, the minimum is 0 and the maximum is 0, I don't ever use it. I hope this is good enough. Thank You.